Attention All Muslims: Urgent Help Needed (2)

OK, I suppose you all caught on by now that the story posted in my previous entry is half true/half fiction. It is of course the story of Abdul Rahman, the Afghani man who dared announce his conversion to Christianity. It was just my way of saying “if you walked a mile in his shoes…” to any Muslim guest who may read this.

Ironically, this man is called Abdul Rahman. This is a compounded Muslim Arabic name which translates to:
Abdul= he who worships the
and Rahman=Merciful, one of Allah’s 99 names in Islam.

I say ironic, because what this man faced from this supposedly merciful God and His followers leaves a lot to be desired in the way of mercy.

He was labeled an apostate (mortadd), rejected by his own family, jailed like a common criminal, sentenced to death, “diagnosed” with mental illness, accused of converting for financial gain, ordered to forsake his new faith…

No doubt you’ve read or heard a lot about his story. I was more interested in what the Arab Islamic media and public opinion was saying. Here is some of what I found:

1) Al Jazeera:
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BF30A354-324F-4A78-9E5B-F344E9D95CFC.htm
الأفغاني المرتد يبحث عن اللجوء في الخارج
The title of the article says: The Afghani apostate seeks to leave the country.

And: http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3EF90EC-5A90-4EC0-B8CA-AFEB0650FB03.htm
الغرب يرغم كابل على إطلاق معتنق المسيحية
The west forces Kabul to free the Christian convert
And: http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7A5A8702-8972-4353-ADBF-BCEC796C53CB.htm
More pressure on Kabul in the case of the Afghani Apostateازدياد الضغوط على كابل في
قضية الأفغاني المرتد
Where we read:
وكان القاضي المكلف بالقضية في المحكمة العليا أنصار الله مولوي قال الخميس "نحاول معالجة هذه القضية بسرعة والتوصل إلى حل مرض" مؤكدا أن الإسلام "دين تسامح وعفو" متراجعا عن تصريح آخر قال فيه "إذا لم
يعد عبد الرحمن إلى الإسلام، فسيتم إنزال عقوبة الإعدام به طبقا للقانون".
The supreme court judge Ansar Allah Molawi said:we are trying to address this issue quickly to arrive at a decsision” He stressed that Islam is a religion of forgiveness and peace, and recanted an earlier statement where he said “If Abdul Rahman doesn’t return to Islam, he will be executed according to the law”

How nice of Aljazeera to keep calling Abdul Rahman an apostate, knowing full well what that label implies.


2) http://us.moheet.com/asp/show_g.asp?pg=13&lc=67&lol=1716279
وأفرجت السلطات الأفغانية عن الأفغاني بعد ضغوط مارستها الولايات المتحدة والغرب تحت ذريعة الحرية الدينية
The Afghan authorities set the man free, after continued pressure from the US and the West under the guise of religious freedom.

Wow! The guise of religious freedom?? The good people at the us.moheet don’t however say what the real motivation is. I wonder what they thought of the arrest itself, or of the fatwa that he deserves death. What were they? Statements made under the guise of a peaceful tolerant religion?

3) http://www.afghannews.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=371
Abdelsabour Shahin, an Islamist writer and academic at Cairo University, told the BBC that although Islam in principle enshrined freedom of belief, there were severe restrictions on that freedom.

"If someone changes from Islam to kufr (unbelief), that has to remain a personal matter, and he should not make it public," he said.


(hmmm! Would that be what is called toqiyya then? You know, lie just to save your skin, live the life of a coward?)

In other words, an apostate in a Muslim society, according to this view, forfeits his freedom of expression. If he goes public he should be executed, says Dr Shahin
He says there is an authoritative and unambiguous hadith (saying of the prophet) which calls for the killing of the apostate - "He who changes his religion should be killed", says Dr Shahin, quoting from the sayings of the prophet.
But Dr Shahin says the mere fact that someone goes public with his apostasy "amounts to fitna (sedition, or civil strife), he is thus like someone fighting Islam, and should therefore be killed."

(Right! He is causing trouble for Islam indeed. What happens now when more Muslims see this and want to know what attracted him to Christianity? Worse yet, what if more Muslims want to convert? Well, we wouldn’t be able to say Islam is the fastest growing religion anymore, that’s what. Nonsense, we kill him and make an example of him…after all, that’s what the great prophet said we should do…and he is the best role model we could follow. Freedom of worship?? HAH!)


4) http://global-war.bloghi.com/2006/03/27/afghan-apostate-loony-seeks-asylum.html
Rahman, 41, was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible

(gasp!! A Bible?!! If he was arrested with some opium, maybe we could let him go…but a Bible?? That’s criminal)


5) Now to my favorite little friends at AlArabiya.net. I don’t know what’s funnier, the articles or the readers comments.
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/03/28/22355.htm
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/03/19/22098.htm

Where many accused the man of accepting money to convert. What doesn’t make sense is that if he accepted money to convert, why would he welcome death for the sake of Christ???


In conclusion, I meant what I said…Attention all Muslims: Urgent help is needed! If you really mean what you say about the religion of peace and tolerance. About the mercy and freedom in Islam, speak up!! This man, and many others who leave Islam haven’t committed a crime. Why should they be sentenced to death? Why does the Islamic world go into hysterics about conversions, or even merely interest in other religions? Why is missionary work and proselytizing prohibited in Muslim countries, but Muslims have no such restrictions in Western countries? Why is it scary to let your people examine other faiths?

Urgent help is needed...not for Abdul Rahman, but for Islam. He no doubt has God's protection because he has put all his faith in Christ and welcomed death as a small price to pay. He doesn't need your help because he was promised:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world John 16:33

and:

Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Luke 6:22

But it is your faith that needs your help.You keep saying that the world has the wrong impression of you and your faith...have you asked yourselves why? Have you taken a step back and looked at the image you are projecting?

Attention All Muslims: Urgent Help Needed (1)

In a small city on Allah’s earth, there lived a boy born to a Christian family. This wasn’t an extraodinary event as almost all the inhabitants of that city were Christians. When this boy grew up, he worked with a group of good Muslim men for a time. During that time, he came to know their faith and Quran. So, he decided to embrace this faith and become a Muslim man too.

Little did he know that by doing so, everyone would turn against him, including his own flesh and blood. It all came to blows when he was arrested after it was known he owned a Quran!!! The bewildered man was taken away and jailed to await a trial. Why? Because the Christians in the city said he had committed a crime by converting to Islam! They said that he is a traitor and the fate of a traitor is death!
He is an apostate!

He committed a sin by converting, and a greater sin by announcing his conversion!
Somehow, news of this broke out to the rest of the world. People everywhere were appalled at the humiliation this poor man faced, solely for exercising his right to embrace a faith he chose for himself.

The Bishop of the little city said “He must die no matter what! He is an apostate.”

Muslim religious leaders pleaded the case of this poor man. World leaders called for mercy. Finally feeling the pressure, the government let the man go free. But to what fate?

Young men from surrounding cities and villages converged on that city. Crying that he must be killed. The man’s own family promised to cut him into little pieces if they see him again.

Can you feel the humiliation of this?? This is an extreme miscarriage of justice and blatant hate towards Islam. This is proof that those Christians know nothing about personal freedoms. Something must be done!

The Martyrdom of St. Sedhom Bishay in Domiat: 25/03/1844 (17 Baramhat)

Many years ago when I was a young girl of just 13 years, I visited a pretty church in the city of Domiat with my family. I had heard that it contained the relics of a saint called St Sidhom Bishay...but what I saw far exceeded my expectations. Relics are usually kept in glass cylinders covered with red velvet cloth...and even though you can't see what's inside them, you are filled with a sense of reverence. Reverence for God whose love was so great in the hearts of the martyred saints, that their lives were a low price to pay to defend their faith.

But the relic of St Sidhom Bishay was not encased in red velvet. His blessed body hadn't decayed and he just lay in his glass coffin as if in eternal testimony to the horrendous injuries he incurred in defense of his faith in Jesus Christ. What I didn't understand back then is that his martyrdom was the reason we the Copts have been able to raise the Lord's cross in our funerals since. You see, after the Arab invasion of Egypt, Muslim rulers prohibited the cross from being raised in public.

Here is the story of St Sidhom Bishay as told in the Coptic Synaxarium http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/g_3_26_2006.html#4

Also, see this link for information on St Mary and St Sidhom Bishay in Domiat:
http://www.damietta.gov.eg/ever.html

and in Arabic (contains a photo of the saint's blessed body):
http://www.damietta.gov.eg/chur.html

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On this day also the church commemorates the martyrdom of Sedhom Bishay in Domiat on the 17th. of Baramhat year 1565 A.D. (March 25th., 1844 A.D.). He endured the torture for the Name of the Lord Christ and his martyrdom made the rising of the Cross during the Christian funeral processions openly, for it was forbidden before.

This martyr was a clerical employee in the government of the port of Domiat during the days of Mohammed Ali Basha the Governor of Egypt. A revolt of mobs in the port arose, they seized Sidhom Bishay and accused him falsely that he cursed Islam and witnessed against him before the religious judge a low uncivilized person and a donkey driver. The judge decided either he would forsake his faith or be killed, he whipped him and then sent him to the Governor of the city. After the Governor had examined his case he issued the same judgement against him as the judge did. Sidhom was steadfast in his Christian faith, not caring to be killed. They whipped, dragged him on his face down the stairs in the Governor palace, then they put him on a buffalo facing the tail and went around with him in the streets of the city insulting and degrading him. The Christians in the city became afraid and locked themselves in their houses.

The mob continued to insult him and tortured him in different ways until he was about to deliver his soul; so they brought him to the door of his house and left him there. His family went out and brought him inside and five days later he departed to heaven.

His departure was a great martyrdom, and the Christians counted him among the holy martyrs. They gathered regardless of their denomination and joined in his funeral in a celebration that there was nothing like it before. The Christians carried their arms and the priest put on their vestments headed by the Archpriest Yousef Michael who was the head of the Coptic congregation in Domiat and accompanied by the priests of the other denominations. They marched in his funeral in the streets of the city and in front of him the deacons carrying the banners of the Cross, and they arrived to the church where they prayed the funeral rites. The people went on objecting this reprehensible and painful incident and talking about the patience and endurance of the different kinds of torture in silence and the steadfastness of Sidhom the martyr.

The prominent people of the Christian community in Domiat deliberated as how to avoid these incidents in the future. They decided to ask the consuls of the foreign countries to mediate with the ruler of the country and the Pope the Patriarch of the Copts and sent to them detailed reports. Mr Michail Sorour the official representative of seven countries in Domiat was in charge of this mediation.

The ruler of Egypt was concerned about this incident and sent two official representatives to examine the case. So they reopened the inquiry and they realized the injustice and the ill-treatment that befell the great martyr and convicted the judge and the governor for their wrong doing, stripped them from their honor then exiled them. They asked, as a good will and to comfort the people, to allow the raising of the Cross publicly before the Christian funerals, and the ruler allowed that in Domiat. This was allowed later on all over the country during the Papacy of Pope Kyrellos IV.

The blessings of this great martyr be with us and glory be to God forever. Amen.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Thank you St Sidhom Bishay. Thank you for bearing witness to the strength of Jesus Christ's love in the hearts of those who follow Him. Thank you for being the reason His cross was again held high in the land of Egypt.

Problems on Hold: The New and Improved Ethnic Cleansing Strategy

The article in the title link is by Mr Youssef Sidhom, the editor of Watany. Mr Sidhom is someone I have a lot of respect for. He never shies away from speaking the truth as you can see from the concluding paragraph of the article. But first let's look at two of the cases listed in the article:

* Adel Ragheb Sourial was born in Daqahliya in 1929. Upon applying for a new ID, the Civil Register office contacted him to say that there was a discrepancy between the data in the papers he had submitted with the application and the data on the computer. The computer data cited Mr Sourial’s parents as Muslims while the papers listed them as Christians. Mr Sourial asks: “What can I do to prove the veracity of the data on my official papers? They are authentic, and were issued, approved, and employed by State apparatuses. Why does the Civil Register Authority reject them now instead of using them to correct the computer error?”

* Hikmah Mahfouz Youssef Ibrahim was born in Alexandria in 1971. Ms Ibrahim applied for a new ID, and was wary of the procedure, the problems of which she had heard of so much. The Civil Register did not disappoint her; it lived up to its reputation and issued her an ID which cited her and her parents’ religion as Muslim, contrary to their actual Christian religion. When she complained, she was told to submit their birth certificates. Since both parents are dead and Ms Ibrahim does not have their birth certificates, she submitted their death certificates—the last official papers that concern them—which cite them both as Christian. The Civil Register clerk rejected the death certificates as proof of the parents’ religion. Ms Ibrahim submitted the ID cards of her six siblings, in all of which the same parents are listed as Christian, but the clerk still rejected them. Ms Ibrahim cries: “Why should I have to pay for a computer entry error that is definitely not my fault?”


And now the concluding paragraph of the article which contained one more case:
* The same story was repeated with Manal Anwar Moawed Shehata, who was born in Cairo in 1969, but Ms Shehata’s problem was further complicated because one of the original documents she submitted was written in such poor handwriting that the word ‘Christian’ could easily pass as ‘Muslim’. As to why this particular document—to the exclusion of all the others cited above in the other similar cases—was taken into consideration by the Civil Register clerk, is inexplicable. And could this document lead to the Islamisation of the entire family, or deprive Ms Shehata of her much-needed computerised ID?

No Mr. Sidhom, it's not really inexplicable at all. It's a classic symptom of the disease that has gripped the psyche of our nation. Perhaps it is fulfillment of Mohammad Anwar elSadat's promise in the Summit of Islamic Nation in the 1950's: that Allah willing, we will either eradicate, convert or humiliate all the Copts of Egypt. Perhaps this is how the government ensures the number of Christians in Egypt is misrepresented.

I suppose burning of churches and attacking innocent civilians could attract a lot of attention. But forced conversions of minors, falsifying official ID papers...it's a modern, bloodless form of ethnic cleansing. I shudder to imagine what else is up their sleeve!

One Step Forward, Two Steps Back

That's how I see the progress of our discussion Sara. We started off bad, but I was beginning to feel hopeful that we're getting somewhere. That perhaps you may be starting to see what I mean, outside of the frame prescribed to you (and indeed all Egyptians) by Egyptian media about the evil diaspora Copts who want to destroy Egypt. Even though we are all proud Egyptian.

Like you said it's not possible to address absolutely everything we say, but usually we try to address the points that stand out to us. So much has stood out to me in your last lot of comments, that I felt I need to address it in a separate post.

Again, I will say that I respect your entitlement to your opinion, but I also value my own entitlement to say what offends me about them. You have overstepped the line in your last comments Sara. Let me tell you how:

1) You have attributed the strength of our faith and our church to Islam!!! What, pray tell gives you the right to evaluate the Christian faith or the Coptic church? What do you know of Orthodoxy?

it is well know that Egyptian coptics are one of the minorities that still keep faith in christinity...not as the western countries who forgot it...that's not because you are a great ppl...not that the main reason...but also you livied in a society that full of faith that helped you in that and didn't stop you.....

What an outrageous claim!!! How arrogant to attribute our steadfastness in preserving the faith to merely living in a Muslim society.

I'll tell you why the church still stands Sara. It is because of a promise Jesus gave us: upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Matthew 16:18
وعلى هذه الصخرة ابني كنيستي وابواب الجحيم لن تقوى عليها

In fact if it were up to some Muslims, Christianity should be eliminated from the land of the great Nile. Anwar Sadat himself made that claim at the Summit of Islamic Nations in the 1950's when he was Secretary of the State to Nasser.

2) Your claims that the kidnapped Coptic girls are merely tramps whose families didn't know how to raise them properly:
it is their family problems who failed to raise their girls on our real traditions and how to be polite and there are many limits in talking with boys....also wafaa kostantine who no one knows what happened to her after el dair took her.... she was knowing a Muslim friend in her work....how could a married woman do such thing...
go and fix those women and ladies ethics and don't make us -Muslims- the reason for every bad thing happen to you according to your bad raising for those families..

متشكرين جدا يا ست ساره. ربنا يكرمك و يكرم أصلك يا ستّى.
So that's what you feel, hey? That they're all worthless, immoral harlots? Do you feel the same about the Kossovar women who were raped by the Serbian soldiers, I wonder?

What about the girl who was on her way to becoming a nun? (Nevine Maher Albert)
What about the girl who called her family asking for help? (Theresa Ghattas)
How come they are all minors, except of course for Ms Costantine, who unwittingly became a champion for every Muslim wishing to deny the kidnappings?????????

3) Your insinuation that the Copts will "cop it" if the UN investigates.
in our Muslims eyes ..you will be the one who brought them to Egypt… these organization are putting Egyptian Copts who lives in Egypt in the place of the enemy…

All I can say to that is, following your own logic, every surviving Jew from the Holocaust should hate all Germans
every American family who lost a loved one in Sept 11 should kill a Muslim person...
Aussie families who lost someone in Bali, kill a Muslim each
British people should lock up all British Muslims...what the hell, kill a few as well.
Then all Muslims should hate the Danes...
And all Jews...

Doesn't matter if these people have anything to do with the original offense...just hate them by association.

If you use that logic Sara, then we live in a jungle. That mentality strips us of the intellect that God gave us to set us apart from His other creation.

Besides, you forget a very important point. Why not fix the problem instead of just taking out the anger on innocent people.ولّا هو يعنى يبقى موت و خراب ديار؟؟؟

Also, nobody, I repeat NOBODY ever asked for foreign interference in any shape or form relating to millitary action!! Get that idea out of your head. If any Copt says it, I guarantee you they'll have to answer to us first. Ya Sara we all have families and childhood friends in Egypt...who wants to see their loved ones live through a war ya benty?????? It is no logical.
__________________________________________
Another issue I wish to clarify is your claims regarding how lucky Copts in Egypt should be:
* To not get offended and shocked like what happened to us with those cartoons
We never make fun of Jesus.

Is that a fact Sara? How about the books published by the Islamic Center for Enlightenment [see previous posts: (How Enlghtening) and (To Peter, Mohamed and Mustafa)]? Who are they making fun of?
What about Zaghloul el Naggar who writes for Al Ahram?? who is he offending?
What about sheikh el Sharawi (yes I'll mention him again) who gave himslef the right to "interpret" our Bible?
What about every tiny bit of sufferig inflicted on Christians in Islamic countries? You know that Jesus said: Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40
فيجيب الملك ويقول لهم الحق اقول لكم بما انكم فعلتموه باحد اخوتي هؤلاء الاصاغر فبي فعلتم


but in western countries they make fun of Jesus…they hurt you deeply and you don't open your mouth to protest!!!

Who says we don't protest? Just because we don't burn buildings, go on a violent rampage, or issue a few death threats??

* You are living with all the forbidden in Christianity that is practiced in those western countries officially!! and you don't open your mouth to protest!!!

1) It isn't what happens outside of a Christian that affects their faith and relationship with God. A good Christian usually lights the way for those around them by setting a good example: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:16
فليضئ نوركم هكذا قدام الناس لكي يروا اعمالكم الحسنة ويمجدوا اباكم الذي في السموات

2) What is it that happens here in the West that doesn't happen in Egypt?

* Alcohol, drugs and gambling? All happen in Egypt. Last I checked the drug problem in Egypt was far worse than it is here in Australia.

* Pre-marital sex? Happens in Egypt...except they cal it "Orfi marriage" over there!! I know! I know! you;ll say it is prohibited in Islam. That's not the point, point is IT HAPPENS. Difference is, here in the West if someone is doing something, they don't lie and hide.

* Homosexual relationships? again, happens in Egypt, and has happened for a loooooooooong time. It's just hidden in failed marriages and stolen affairs.

* Criticism of religions? Happens in Egypt. Difference is, here everyone is equal. In Egypt, only Islam is exempt from criticism.

The image of a immoral Westren soeciety with no values, is a symptom of the Arab mentality that is diseased with resentment and jealousy. I have lived here for half my life, and have seen so many solid families from all nationalities you can imagine. Families where there is respect, morals and good values taught to their children. Families that are no less cohesive than their Egyptian counterparts, if not more than some. I have friends who are just as honorable and dignified as my old Egyptian friends. I have friends who are more religious than many Egyptians are.

There are negatives here, sure! but what society is free of those? At least here people are open and honest and they don't hide from their problems.

You criticise me for pointing out faults in the Egyptian society, saying I don't live there and so I don't know what I'm saying. Yet there you are passing judgement on the Western society as a whole, and all you probably know of them is photos of half naked celebrities and sleazy stories about teenage pregnancies that the Arab media loves so much to bandy about.

but in those countries...they left the chiristinity aside and most of these countries became with no relegion....

The state and Church were separated. Religion and politics were separated. But people haven't just "left" Christianity. The Catholic church around the corner from my house fills up with so many worshippers every Sunday, they have to run 4 mass celebrations! And still, people are spilling out of the doors. And that's just one church! And generally, teh Catholic church is witnessing a revival (see David's post on the subject http://italiancatholic.blogspot.com/2006/03/new-fervor-among-young-italian.html)

you are in america, read news...hear huromers...visit at min annualy...not a day by day living

You forget that I was born and raised in Cairo. In Shoubra to be precise. You don't get any more "real Egyptian experience" than that! I grew up on a diet of molokheyia, fuol, Naguib Mahfouz, Abdel Halim, Om Kalthoum, Yousef Idriss, Tawfiq el Hakim, Taha Hussain, Ali Amin and Mostafa Amin. I wrote poems about Jamila Bu7reid, Arab unity and children of the Intifada for my Arabic homework. My grandfather actually graced the political prisons you seem to think only house Muslims. He was jailed repeatedly for "resisting the Brittish occupation" then again for protesting corruption in Nasser's time. My uncles were right there in Sinai when we were defeated in 1967. My father fought and was injured in the October 1973 war. I know what Egypt is, and what Egyptians are Sara. I don't just read about it in the papers!

If you're still reading, and you haven't fallen asleep out of boredom or turned off the computer out of anger, I wish you all the best Sara. I pray that one day you may start to understand what we are really saying, and stop assuming the worst in us.

God Bless you and your family.

Why an Independent Coptic State is Simply NOT an Option

Rumors of the Copts' desire to form a separate state, possibly in the Upper Egypt region, surfaced around the late 1970's, early 1980's. I had heard of these rumors before, but I thought they had died years ago. Apparently not! It seems recently (especially over the past couple of years) someone has been awakening those rumors, which are best described as ridiculous. A marvelous work by Free Copts on a Coptic flag, which they kindly allowed me to publish here lead to a discussion regarding this issue with a guest from Egypt.

Before I go any further, I'd like to clarify that what I say here is my opinion which I formed after researching the issue best as I could, and discussing it with some of the older members of the Coptic community here in Australia.


*********************************

Why it's not an option...

1) Strategically, it would be a great mistake. A Coptic state in Upper Egypt wedged between what will be the Islamic north, and the Sudanese Arabs in Northern Sudan, will be the equivalent of painting big red spots on our foreheads, and giving out invitations to the Muslim extremists to attack from North and South!

2) Logistically, it would be a nightmare. Copts currently live in cities and villages all over Egypt. Some have businesses, all attend churches built in all corners of the country. We have monasteries and convents containing sacred relics, from St Catherine's in Sinai to Wadi el Nattroun and all over Masr El Qadima. It's not an option to leave all that behind, so how are we to transfer all this to Upper Egypt?

3) How would we defend ourselves against attacks that are certain to take place? The myth about secret stashes of weapons in monasteries and churches is just that...a myth!

a) Monasteries and churches are always open, and receive worshippers and visitors every day of the year. If anyone wanted to wander around a monastery they're free to. If the police, the military, or state security wanted to investigate and search they welcome to. If this were true, it would be a matter which threatens national security, why hasn't anyone bothered to search?

b) The Coptic church has preserved the faith for 2000 years. One of the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ is: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52. How is reasonable then for priests and monks and servants of Jesus to stash weapons in His churches and near His consecrated altars????


*****************************

Who is claiming...

A greater insult added to the persecution suffered by the Copts in Egypt, is that Muslim extremists and indeed a lot of our moderate Muslim compatriots have denounced the diaspora Copts the right to speak on their fellow Copts behalf, but have freely given themselves that very right. They speculate and make conclusions regarding Coptic affairs without so much a thought for what we really believe and want.

An example of this is the references quoted by my guest Sara, in response to my request for verification as to why she believes Copts are planning to form an independent state. Let's examine them briefly. My comments will be between brackets:

1)http://www.ansab-online.com/phpBB2/showthread.php?t=4635
This page is from an Arabic forum and the topic is the Israeli plan to break up the Arab nation. The members discussing this topic have cited the following page: http://www.bahethcenter.org/arabic/malafat/wathaek/alwathaka_alsohionia.htm
which contains an article by a writer named Mohammad Seif-AlDawla. Mr Seif discusses "The Zionist document for breaking up the Arab nation" which he says was published in an Israeli paper called "Kifonim" in 1982. Mr Seif laments the step taken by Egypt to sign the Camp David agreements which he says took Egypt out of the equation and left Israel to take on the other Arab countries (as if Egypt was the mighty force stopping Israel to begin with?)

The Zionist document apparently says teh following:

ـ في مصر توجد أغلبية سنية مسلمة مقابل أقلية كبيرة من المسيحيين الذين يشكلون الأغلبية في مصر العليا، حوالي 8 مليون نسمة. وكان الرئيس محمد أنور السادات قد أعرب في خطابه في أيار/مايو من عام 1980 عن خشيته من أن تطالب هذه الأقلية بقيام دولتها الخاصة، أي دولة "لبنانية" مسيحية جديدة في مصر...

-There is a Sunni Muslim majority in Egypt, and a Christian minority (8 million) living mainly in Upper Egypt. In his speech delivered in May 1980, president Mohammad Anwar Sadat expressed his fear that this Christian minority will demand an independent Christian state in Egypt.

(Right, so here we have an Israeli, saying that the Muslim president has concerns about a Coptic state. No mention however of where the respected president arrived at this conclusion. No mention that a Coptic personality, prominent or not, gave any indication of this intention)

2) http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=294&CID=12
An article by Mr Mohammad Abdulla AlMo'ti published in the Arabic Times 11-20 September 1992.
Mr Abdel Mo'ti says: analysts are speculating that after the clashes between Muslims and Copts in Upper Egypt, the attacks on tourists busses and the government's apparent failure in managing the earthquake disaster, may result in a civil war which will result in 3 states in Egypt: A Coptic state, an Islamic state and a Nubian state.

(there's too much conjecture and speculation here)

Also:"‏المحلل للمؤتمر الصحـفي الذي عُقد بالكـنيسة المصرية في مصر، يشعر أنه يحمل تهديدًا مبطنًا بأن الأقباط بإمكانهم طلب الدعم الخارجـي، وأنهم يعانون من الاضطهاد‏"‏‏.‏
Again, he says that from a political analyst's view point, the Coptic conference had hidden implications of the Copts requesting the support of foriegn nations as a result of their oppression.

Then he says: ازدياد الجماعات المتطرفة المسيحية ‏(‏هناك 14 مجموعة مسلحة‏)‏،
The number of armed extremist Christian gangs in Egypt has risen to 14 .

(WOW!!! FOURTEEN?? he doesn't say where they are, who their members are and how they managed to avoid detection by the state security forces, when they're obviously known to a journalist like him)


*********************************

Why would they want to claim it...

In my opinion, it seems Anwar Sadat made that claim back then to divert attention from Camp David. It's no secret that he angered the masses, especially the Muslim Brotherhood, by merely shaking hands with the enemy, let alone signing a peace treaty. What to do? What to do?
Support fundamentalist Muslim gangs, give them another enemy to hate...this time an easy target so they can vent their anger successfully...THE COPTS. But how to arouse their ire? AHA! look out, they're storing weapons and they want a separate state!!

So successful was he, that the carnage increased in rate and in ferocity. He also paid a high price for his decision. Those very same gangs assassinated him. However, it seems he had the easy way out, while the Coptic community are still losing children, churches and freedoms til this day.

RE: Muslim's comment on "Coptic Flag"...The Holy Trinity

Just to provide a background to those unfamiliar with the origin of this discussion, I decided to post this in a separate post.

While visiting another blog I observed a discussion between 3 Muslim readers and a Christian reader regarding Christian beliefs. One Muslim reader posed a question on the concept of the Holy Trinity and whether or not it is mentioned in the Bible. I couldn't resist answering the question...here's what I said:

Hi Guys
I've been sort of following the discussion you are having with Mario. I hope you won't mind me adding a couple of points to the discussion. These are my own explanations as I understand Christianity and as is supported by Biblical reference:
(2- if this word ( trinity)wasnt presented in the Bible, then where did it come from?
did someone invent or add it in Christianity? )
It may not have been spelled out in the Bible, but the concept is there.
If you read the Gospel of St John, chapter 1 verse 1 and 2:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.

The word of God is Jesus Christ. This is verified again in verse 14: 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
That explains the Son.
As for the Holy Spirit: Matthew 3:16-17
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
and in Acts 2:17-18
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy
___________________________________
So in short, even if the word trinity itself is not in the Bible, the concept is clearly in there. The fact we believe in Holy Trinity doesn't mean we believe in 3 Gods.
The sun is a body that emmits warmth and light. Yet it is just one sun.
You have a mind and a spoken word. But you are just one person.
God has a Spirit and He sent His word (Jesus) to the world. He is one God.
It is a difficult concept to understand. I won't however claim that if you don't understand it then you must be stupid (like Truth claimed anyone who didn't understand the Quranic miracle must be!!). I'll just say that if you look at something with bias, you may not see the truth in it.
God Bless All

Then I remembered something else so I posted:

Hey guys
Sorry just thought of something else re:Trinity.
In Matthew 28:19
19Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Notice here He says in the "name" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit... not the "names"... Which means the three are one.
Also in John's Gospel, St John indicates the purpose of his writing this Gospel is to indeed show that Christ IS the Son of God. Chapter 20:31
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Then I was rewarded by a torrent of abuse by the person called Truth, for my efforts in answering the question he posed. Silly me, I thought he was asking a question because he genuinely wanted to kn ow the answer!

Then Muslim posted the comment on my post The Coptic Flag which I'd like to respond to here. Before I do, I thank Muslim for his comment which is a far cry form the childich retort i recieved from Truth.

If Islam and Judaism state clearly the Oneness of Allah ..
How can Christianity which is the second volume of the same book says otherwise.

Christianity doesn't say otherwise. We have something called the "Creed" which is our cofession and affirmation of our faith in Christianity. The opening statement in our creed is: (see: http://www.scar.utoronto.ca/~coptic/creed.shtml)
Truly we believe in One God

Is any of us; He and his father ONE??!!
No we aren't one with our fathers or mothers. But the concept of God the Father and God the Son in the Holy Trinity is not the same as how men father children on earth. God didn't actually father a child...We say Jesus is the Son of God to point out the fact that He was sent from God and He is God.

Allah almighty sent Muhammad PBUH as the final Prophet to complete the religion that has been sent in volumes Judaism, Christianity then Islam. That religion needed to be completed and prove is that they all allow and forbids the same things with more aspects to life way of living in Islam.

Now that's interesting. What was it that Islam completed? Christianity and Judaism were already quite clear in what they allowed and disallowed. In fact Christianity completed Judaism.

The Old Testament is there to explain what the original sin was, and why we needed salvation. It also predicts the coming of the Massaiah who will deliver that salvation and reconcile Heaven and earth. The New Testament shows the fullfillment of those prophecies and tells of the early Church.

Forgive me, but I fail to see how Islam has anything to do with this. How did Islam address the salvation of humankind from the original sin? How does Islam address the Saviour (The Massaiah) that Jews are still waiting for?

Not all Christians are disbelievers or imitate disbelievers

If by "disbelievers" you mean those who believe in the Holy Trinity, I regret to tell you we are all disbelievers to you then. There isn't a Christian on earth who doesn't believe in the Divinity of Christ...it isn't possible!

For disbelievers and atheists, Allah also in Quran has drawn to us the basic lines in our relationship with them and how to treat them.

Would you care to list those for us please Muslim?

...if Judaism and Islam order us to glorify the Lords “Allah”’s name and not to take him in vain which include but not limited to “valueless, pointless, worthless … etc. acts”, then certainly Christianity does not allow this. Allah’s messengers have been praised and valued by Allah in all religions. Allah wouldn’t accept their names to be taken in vain!!

I believe you said this in the context of the cartoon issue. You're right, we follow that same command in Christianity. But what did Christianity have to do with the cartoons anyway?

I don't know where you 're from Muslim, but it always seems that the Islamic world views the West as "Christian", and so everything that happens in the West must be attributed to Christianity. Not True!

Christianity itself has suffered a great deal of mockery and insults at the hands of "Westerners" too. Christianity may be the religion of the majority here, but it doesn't dictate what is written in the papers or shown at galleries or taught at schools. The West is SECULAR.

Finally, I do acknowledge again that the concept of the Holy Trinity looks difficult and illogical on the surface. However, it is what we (Christians) believe in and will always believe in. If it makes us unbelievers in the eyes of Muslims, so be it.

Martyrs of Our Time

This is a wonderful idea introduced by "The Polish Foundation of St. Benedictus" to commemorate the countless souls of innocent Christians, whose only crime is their faith.



This is George Shehata, the 13 year old who died during the attacks carried out by Muslims of the Udayssat village on their Christian compatriots in January. His only offense was that he dared, along with his community, to hope for a place of worship where they can safely pray to God and practice their faith.

May the Lord give this boy's family solace and comfort.

Thanks to Gateway Pundit for the picture and the link.

Stolen: Tereza Ghattas Kamal (2)

The Canadian Coptic Association have kindly allowed me to post the story of Tereza on this blog in Arabic and English. You can read the Arabic version in Stolen: Tereza Ghattas Kamal (1) and both Arabic and English versions are linked to the posts through the post titles.

If you do read Arabic you'll note that the English version is far tamer than the Arabic one. The Arabic article relays the events as told by the victim's brother and it details intimidation and abuse directed at the family of the victim by the police. There is also an account told by Tereza's sister where she says Tereza was approached by a Muslim man Motaz Mohammad Metwali and offered 5000 pounds if she converted to Islam.

The phone call where Tereza spoke to her aunt saying she wants to go back home is also mentioned. Here's what Tereza said:

"Why have you all left me? Theyve kidnapped me and are treating me very badly. They want to force me to convert and I don't know where I am"

The aunt had caller ID on her phone and the call was traced back to someone who works for the Egyptian State Security!!

Please pray for the safe return of this girl who is being held against her will. Pray also for the safety of all Egyptians, because if the security police are the ones committing crimes...what will the criminals do? More importantly, what will the innocent do?

Stolen: Tereza Ghattas Kamal (1)

التفاصيل الكاملة لحادثة اختطاف الفتاة القبطية تريزا غطاس كمال جرجس



يرويها الاستاذ سعيد غطاس كمال شقيق الفتاة المختطفة :


انه في يوم 3 / 1 / 2006 الساعه السابعة والنصف مساء و بينما كنت في وادي النطرون محل سكن الأسرة تم ٳتصال من تريزا ٳلي وقالت أن بطاقتها وكرنيه المعهد فُقدا منها في التاكسي الذي ٳستقلته بين الجيزه ومركز الصف وقالت انها عند أبونا بافلي كاهن كنيسة الصف في الجيزه واللبس بتاع العيد أيضا ضاع في التاكسي وأعطاها مبلغ 170 جنيه وقال لها أن تذهب ٳلي السكن الخاص بها التابع لمطرانية الجيزة حيث انها مغتربة و طلب منها الكاهن أن تذهب الي المعهد في الصباح لاستخراج كارنية جديد و بعد أن اخبرتني بهذا الموضوع علي التلفون أكدت انها سوف تصل الي أهلها يوم الاربعاء مساء او الخميس باكر علي اقصي تقدير .

و لكنها لم تصل ٳلي المنزل حتي مساء الخميس و حاولت كثيراً الاتصال بها و لكن الموبيل الخاص بها كان دائما غير متاح ثم اتصلت بالسكن الذي تقيم فيه فقالوا انها لم تأتي من يوم الثلاثاء حينما كانت عند الأب بافلي حيث قالت لهم انها سوف تسافر الي اسرتها في وادي النطرون .

و في يوم الجمعة ذهبت للسؤال عنها في بعض المستشفيات و حاولت أن أحرر محضر باختفائها في قسم الشرطة في مركز الصف فرفضوا تحرير المحضر بحجة أنها غير مقيمة في مركز الصف و ذهبت أيضا ٳلي قسم شرطة الجيزة الذي رفض أيضا تحرير محضر باختفائها وأاخبروني أنه لابد من تحرير المحضر في وادي النطرون

وبعد مرور سبعة ايام من تحرير المحضر في وادي النطرون قالت لنا اختها رشا ان هناك شاب مسلم يدعي معتز محمد متولي و شهرته عزت حاول من سنة و نصف اغراء تيريزا لاشهار اسلامها في مقابل خمسة الألاف جنية مصري و قال لتريزا (لو حبيتي تجيبي حد من زميلك وياخد نفس المبلغ عندي الي يدفع وهو الشيخ فكري ومقيم في وادي النطرون و هو صاحب صيدليه بيطري).

فقمت أنا و بقية اخواتها بالذهاب ٳلي مركز شرطة وادي النطرون و حررنا بلاغ باتهام المدعو معتز محمد متولي باختطاف تريزا و رقم المحضر هو 133 بتاريخ 10/1/2006 .
وتحول المحضر الي النيابه وامن الدوله و كان يتابع الموضوع الاباء الكهنه ابونا يحنس وابونا بطرس كاهن كنيسة الطرانه وابونا بسنتي كاهن كنيسة مدينة السادات وابونا بافلي كاهن كنيسة الخطاطبه .

ولما عرف السيد طارق هيكل رئيس مباحث امن الدوله بالمحافظة اننا متجمهرين عند المركز وقال (الناس دي تروح ويجي اخواتها بكره الثلاثه سعيد وجرجس ورشا وانا هوريهم اختهم ولو حد فيهم فضل قدام المركز انا هعتقلة ( ..........

وذهبنا الي هناك يوم 18 /1/ 2006 الي رئيس مباحث امن الدوله السيد طارق هيكل الذي سالني سؤال وقال لي (هل اختك مشيت بمزجها ولا مخطوفه؟) فاجبت علية ان اختي مختطفة فقام باهانتي و قال لي انت انسان قليل الادب و طردني من المكان .

و بعد ساعة استدعاني مرة اخري و كان معه الاب يحنس و قال لي السيد طارق هيكل (اختك اشهرت اسلامها من يوم 3/1/2006 و هي ترفض مقابلتكم ) ثم التفت الي الأب يحنس و قال له (هحاول اجيبك و تكون معاها علشان الموضوع مش في يدي الموضوع في يد اللواء حسن عبد الرحمن في القاهرة .

وفي يوم 24/1/2006 حدث اتصال تلفوني من تريزا الي أحد الاقارب في وادي النطرون و قالت بالحرف الواحد (انتم سايبني ليه؟ انا مخطوفه وبيعاملوني معامله وحشه وعايزني اسلم غصب عني وانا معرفش انا فين.(.

ومن خلال اظهار رقم التلفون الذي اتصلت منه عرفنا العنوان و بيانات صاحب التلفون و هو مصطفي محمود علي مقيم 21 شارع سته شبرا البلد امام كلية الزراعه .

و علي أثر ذلك قام ابونا يحنس باتصال بمطرانية شبرا وحكي الموضوع كله للمطرانية . وبعدها بيومين ذهبت الي امن الدوله ومعي محامي من مكتب المستشار نجيب جبرائيل . و قابلنا احد الضباط في أمن الدولة الذي قال لي ان الاستاذ رمسيس المحامي قص عليه الموضوع وقال ان أمن الدولة قد احضر صاحب الشقة التي اتصلت منها تريزا حين كان تستغيث بنا و هو السيد مصطفي محمود علي الذي انكر تماما أي علاقة او سابق معرفة بينة و بين تريزا ... وبعد ذلك بيومين عرفنا ان هذا الشخص (مصطفي محمود علي) يعمل في امن الدوله .

اريد أن أعرف ٳجابات تلك الاسئلة :

1- انا عايز اختي وعايز اعرف ايه مصيرها ؟
2- عايز اعرف ما معني كلام طارق هيكل ؟
3- ما معني وجود اختي في شقة رجل من رجال امن الدوله ؟

رجاء الاهتمام بالموضوع .

سعيد غطاس كمال جرجس شقيق الفتاة المختطفة

Coptic Flag

I saw this on the Free Copts blog and absolutely loved it. Click on link in the post's title to see the explanation of the colors and symbols.





And before anyone uses this to accuse us of wanting a separate Coptic country in Egypt, I'd like to say that's never been our intention. We wouldn't dream of splitting Egypt up. After all, it was our ancestor the great king Mina who unified it thousands of years ago.

Having a flag doesn't always mean having a separate country. In Australia, the Aboriginal community have a flag, but we are all Australian and living in one country.

Free Copts have done a marvellous job with this flag.

To Peter, Mohamed and Mustafa

OK! I'm back, and feeling better and would like to address your comments on post: مصر ليست وطنا نعيش به و لكنها وطن يعيش فينا

Because I missed the opportunity to respond to a few comments, I thought I'd address them in a separate post.

First of all, thank you all for everything you contributed to this discussion.

Pete; I just wanted to say thanks mate. I really appreciated your info on the early history of the Copts. I learnt some things I didn't know before.

Here are the points I wanted to address:

* RE: books cited in a previous post that attack Christianity, Mohamed said: Christians shouldn't take it as offensive...

But we do. Same way Muslims around the world thought the cartoons were offensive, but the cartoonists didn't think they were. They are offensive. That man Abu Islam Ahmad Abdalla who wrote some of the books cited, and owns that "Center for Enlightenment" has a website FILLED to the brim with anti-Christian slogans. If you are interested and can read Arabic go to http://www.baladynet.net/ and see the hatred oozing out the screen at you.
What do you call that Mohamed??
That vile individual says the following:
- Responses to "the people of the cross"
- Crimes of the Christians
- We're here to resist "Christening" our society (what on earth is he talking about??)
Here are some of his books:
- Sharia is the solution (to what?)
- The story of a nation called Egypt: where he claims to dispel "lies" by the Christians that Muslims aren't originally Egyptians and Copts (the man must be hallucinating)
- Sexual deviants in the church
- Pope Shenouda and Sectarian violence

And many more outright ridiculous claims and absurd arguments that are at best conspiracy theories and half truths. He even attempted a couple of articles about Catholics and Orthodox dialogue, like he can even begin to understand that issue. Do you not think that's offensive??

He's there attacking everything we hold dear and holy, beginning with our faith, our Christ, our Bible and ending with our Pope. Yet how many Copts did hear of that demanded an apology from him?
How many demonstrations peaceful or violent came of this?
How many Copts went on TV and threatened him with murder, like Amr Adeeb threatened Father Zakaria indirectly that if he set foot in Egypt he'll be "torn to pieces"??
Keep in mind that Father Zakaria never uses such vulgar expressions and emotive language like this guy. I personally have listened to and watched
70 episodes from Fr. Zakaria's program and there was never an insult directed at anyone. He merely discussed issues that are written in Islamic books...books that are not from biased sources, rather they are books that Al Azhar would use and endorse.


If you see a wrong thing and hope to tell the one who believe in this thing that it's not correct,but in the same time you want to keep his feelings,Will you leave him,saying that his feelings is more important than correcting his ideas?!!

No Mohamed, but I wouldn't antagonise him/her either. Besides, how do YOU know you aright and I'm wrong?

It's human nature for each of us to believe that they are right. Otherwise, we wouldn't carry on something that we believe is wrong. We all have values and beliefs that we are convinced are correct. That's fine. What's NOT fine is to get too comfortable and disregard other people's values and views.

We live in an age where information about just everything is just a click of a mouse away. If I wanted to learn a language, get an obscure recipe, chat to a guy from Iceland, learn about Buddhism, see Alaska I could do so right here from my own comfortable home.

What's more important than showing someone the error of THEIR ways, is showing them the goodness of yours. In the Christian faith we learn that the best way to glorify God is to show others how His love can change you. The Lord says: Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Matthew 5:13

At the end I apologize if I insulted you or your religion or if I caused harm to you,and ask Allah to forgive me if I did wrong.

No Mohamed, you don't need to apologise to us. Christianity has endured 2000 long years and it is still standing firm. As a Christian I believe that a word uttered against my faith, or an act intended to weaken my church is as much for the glory of God as a good word or a charitable act.
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.Luke 6:22-23

Mustafa:
Thank you for your well worded comment and your your good sentiment. Please allow me to discuss a couple of things you brought up.

* RE: the definition of Copt: You are correct, except we (Christian Egyptians) were always labeled Copts. Perhaps a distinction left over from the days when Christians were strictly Egyptians and Muslims strictly Arabs.

Also if we really want to live with each other in peace & harmony we should forget all the past. Then we should really think about the relationship between Muslims & Christians in Egypt.

I respectfully disagree Mustafa. By no means is it positive to dwell on the past. However, the past must be acknowledged before we can move on. If we simply forget the past, we will not learn from past mistakes. If we simply forget the past we cannot understand how the current situation precipitated.

The first thing a doctor does when attempting to diagnose or treat an illness, is to check the patient's history. What the Egyptian society is suffering these days is an illness. Before we eradicate it we need to know where it started and how it got here. Until we all, Muslims and Christians acknowledge this, it will be too difficult to heal.

Another point is the impact on the Coptic community. I'm not too familiar with Egyptian law, but here in Australia and I believe in the States they have a similar thing (Pete am I right?), we have something called "Victim Impact Statement". This is a chance given to victims of crimes (Or their families if the victim themselves is deceased as a result of the attack) to tell the court how the crime affected them. This statement is often considered by the judge when handing down the sentence. But more importantly, the victim knows their feelings are important and that they've been heard.

That's what I personally would like to see. It hurts more than you can imagine when good, level headed Muslims who don;t condone violence and are peaceful people, deny the obvious. If all you moderate Muslims came out and said "it's true, there's been injustice...let's work on it" then things would be different. What has been happening however, is that mostly, moderate Muslims lecture us on the glories of peaceful Islam and maybe sometimes they might admit there's possibly an injustice or two against some Copts by a tiny minority of Muslims who probably don't understand Islam.

The idea of not accepting conversations between us in religion really scares me out. Because let's face it, if I died while I am practicing the wrong religion then I might get damned from salvation. I always remember something my prophet said one. He said that if god has a son then I should be the 1st to believe in that. Simply this means that Muslims & Christians really should talk about what the believe. Through history there were hundreds of conversions from each side as a result to these conversations.

Religious dialogue is not a bad thing. However, when it's one sided then it IS. The comment I made to Mohamed was in light of his constant one sided argument that absolutely disregarded anything of the opposite side. Also Mohamed has constantly asked me (and Amillennialist on his blog): not to take verses out of context, and to cite neutral sources. Two requests I feel he himslef failed to carry out numerous times. I am not having a go at you Mohamed, I'm just explaining the context of my comment to Mustafa.

Christians should never accuse Muslims of kidnapping their children & force them to convert.

No they shouldn't, if it were untrue. But in many cases it is in fact the truth that girls are kidnapped and/or coerced to convert.

Mosques don't really need permission to be built. I dream that someday Churches get the same facilities like mosques

Bless you for that, so do we!

At last I have to say that none of our dreams will be accomplished if we didn't really have the well to accomplish them. Both religions believe in love & believe that god is love. We all should ask god for mercy & salvation. We all should ask god for guidance

Amen to that!! But God isn't going to do it all for us, like you said WE have to have the will to change things. I for one, add my voice to yours in prayer that God guide us all to what is right.

Now that I waffled on for so long, I probably bored you all to tears :)
Thanks again for your valuable contributions.