One Step Forward, Two Steps Back
That's how I see the progress of our discussion Sara. We started off bad, but I was beginning to feel hopeful that we're getting somewhere. That perhaps you may be starting to see what I mean, outside of the frame prescribed to you (and indeed all Egyptians) by Egyptian media about the evil diaspora Copts who want to destroy Egypt. Even though we are all proud Egyptian.
Like you said it's not possible to address absolutely everything we say, but usually we try to address the points that stand out to us. So much has stood out to me in your last lot of comments, that I felt I need to address it in a separate post.
Again, I will say that I respect your entitlement to your opinion, but I also value my own entitlement to say what offends me about them. You have overstepped the line in your last comments Sara. Let me tell you how:
1) You have attributed the strength of our faith and our church to Islam!!! What, pray tell gives you the right to evaluate the Christian faith or the Coptic church? What do you know of Orthodoxy?
it is well know that Egyptian coptics are one of the minorities that still keep faith in christinity...not as the western countries who forgot it...that's not because you are a great ppl...not that the main reason...but also you livied in a society that full of faith that helped you in that and didn't stop you.....
What an outrageous claim!!! How arrogant to attribute our steadfastness in preserving the faith to merely living in a Muslim society.
I'll tell you why the church still stands Sara. It is because of a promise Jesus gave us: upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Matthew 16:18
وعلى هذه الصخرة ابني كنيستي وابواب الجحيم لن تقوى عليها
In fact if it were up to some Muslims, Christianity should be eliminated from the land of the great Nile. Anwar Sadat himself made that claim at the Summit of Islamic Nations in the 1950's when he was Secretary of the State to Nasser.
2) Your claims that the kidnapped Coptic girls are merely tramps whose families didn't know how to raise them properly:
it is their family problems who failed to raise their girls on our real traditions and how to be polite and there are many limits in talking with boys....also wafaa kostantine who no one knows what happened to her after el dair took her.... she was knowing a Muslim friend in her work....how could a married woman do such thing...
go and fix those women and ladies ethics and don't make us -Muslims- the reason for every bad thing happen to you according to your bad raising for those families..
متشكرين جدا يا ست ساره. ربنا يكرمك و يكرم أصلك يا ستّى.
So that's what you feel, hey? That they're all worthless, immoral harlots? Do you feel the same about the Kossovar women who were raped by the Serbian soldiers, I wonder?
What about the girl who was on her way to becoming a nun? (Nevine Maher Albert)
What about the girl who called her family asking for help? (Theresa Ghattas)
How come they are all minors, except of course for Ms Costantine, who unwittingly became a champion for every Muslim wishing to deny the kidnappings?????????
3) Your insinuation that the Copts will "cop it" if the UN investigates.
in our Muslims eyes ..you will be the one who brought them to Egypt these organization are putting Egyptian Copts who lives in Egypt in the place of the enemyÂ
All I can say to that is, following your own logic, every surviving Jew from the Holocaust should hate all Germans
every American family who lost a loved one in Sept 11 should kill a Muslim person...
Aussie families who lost someone in Bali, kill a Muslim each
British people should lock up all British Muslims...what the hell, kill a few as well.
Then all Muslims should hate the Danes...
And all Jews...
Doesn't matter if these people have anything to do with the original offense...just hate them by association.
If you use that logic Sara, then we live in a jungle. That mentality strips us of the intellect that God gave us to set us apart from His other creation.
Besides, you forget a very important point. Why not fix the problem instead of just taking out the anger on innocent people.ولّا هو يعنى يبقى موت و خراب ديار؟؟؟
Also, nobody, I repeat NOBODY ever asked for foreign interference in any shape or form relating to millitary action!! Get that idea out of your head. If any Copt says it, I guarantee you they'll have to answer to us first. Ya Sara we all have families and childhood friends in Egypt...who wants to see their loved ones live through a war ya benty?????? It is no logical.
__________________________________________
Another issue I wish to clarify is your claims regarding how lucky Copts in Egypt should be:
* To not get offended and shocked like what happened to us with those cartoons
We never make fun of Jesus.
Is that a fact Sara? How about the books published by the Islamic Center for Enlightenment [see previous posts: (How Enlghtening) and (To Peter, Mohamed and Mustafa)]? Who are they making fun of?
What about Zaghloul el Naggar who writes for Al Ahram?? who is he offending?
What about sheikh el Sharawi (yes I'll mention him again) who gave himslef the right to "interpret" our Bible?
What about every tiny bit of sufferig inflicted on Christians in Islamic countries? You know that Jesus said: Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40
فيجيب الملك ويقول لهم الحق اقول لكم بما انكم فعلتموه باحد اخوتي هؤلاء الاصاغر فبي فعلتم
but in western countries they make fun of Jesus they hurt you deeply and you don't open your mouth to protest!!!
Who says we don't protest? Just because we don't burn buildings, go on a violent rampage, or issue a few death threats??
* You are living with all the forbidden in Christianity that is practiced in those western countries officially!! and you don't open your mouth to protest!!!
1) It isn't what happens outside of a Christian that affects their faith and relationship with God. A good Christian usually lights the way for those around them by setting a good example: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:16
فليضئ نوركم هكذا قدام الناس لكي يروا اعمالكم الحسنة ويمجدوا اباكم الذي في السموات
2) What is it that happens here in the West that doesn't happen in Egypt?
* Alcohol, drugs and gambling? All happen in Egypt. Last I checked the drug problem in Egypt was far worse than it is here in Australia.
* Pre-marital sex? Happens in Egypt...except they cal it "Orfi marriage" over there!! I know! I know! you;ll say it is prohibited in Islam. That's not the point, point is IT HAPPENS. Difference is, here in the West if someone is doing something, they don't lie and hide.
* Homosexual relationships? again, happens in Egypt, and has happened for a loooooooooong time. It's just hidden in failed marriages and stolen affairs.
* Criticism of religions? Happens in Egypt. Difference is, here everyone is equal. In Egypt, only Islam is exempt from criticism.
The image of a immoral Westren soeciety with no values, is a symptom of the Arab mentality that is diseased with resentment and jealousy. I have lived here for half my life, and have seen so many solid families from all nationalities you can imagine. Families where there is respect, morals and good values taught to their children. Families that are no less cohesive than their Egyptian counterparts, if not more than some. I have friends who are just as honorable and dignified as my old Egyptian friends. I have friends who are more religious than many Egyptians are.
There are negatives here, sure! but what society is free of those? At least here people are open and honest and they don't hide from their problems.
You criticise me for pointing out faults in the Egyptian society, saying I don't live there and so I don't know what I'm saying. Yet there you are passing judgement on the Western society as a whole, and all you probably know of them is photos of half naked celebrities and sleazy stories about teenage pregnancies that the Arab media loves so much to bandy about.
but in those countries...they left the chiristinity aside and most of these countries became with no relegion....
The state and Church were separated. Religion and politics were separated. But people haven't just "left" Christianity. The Catholic church around the corner from my house fills up with so many worshippers every Sunday, they have to run 4 mass celebrations! And still, people are spilling out of the doors. And that's just one church! And generally, teh Catholic church is witnessing a revival (see David's post on the subject http://italiancatholic.blogspot.com/2006/03/new-fervor-among-young-italian.html)
you are in america, read news...hear huromers...visit at min annualy...not a day by day living
You forget that I was born and raised in Cairo. In Shoubra to be precise. You don't get any more "real Egyptian experience" than that! I grew up on a diet of molokheyia, fuol, Naguib Mahfouz, Abdel Halim, Om Kalthoum, Yousef Idriss, Tawfiq el Hakim, Taha Hussain, Ali Amin and Mostafa Amin. I wrote poems about Jamila Bu7reid, Arab unity and children of the Intifada for my Arabic homework. My grandfather actually graced the political prisons you seem to think only house Muslims. He was jailed repeatedly for "resisting the Brittish occupation" then again for protesting corruption in Nasser's time. My uncles were right there in Sinai when we were defeated in 1967. My father fought and was injured in the October 1973 war. I know what Egypt is, and what Egyptians are Sara. I don't just read about it in the papers!
If you're still reading, and you haven't fallen asleep out of boredom or turned off the computer out of anger, I wish you all the best Sara. I pray that one day you may start to understand what we are really saying, and stop assuming the worst in us.
God Bless you and your family.
Like you said it's not possible to address absolutely everything we say, but usually we try to address the points that stand out to us. So much has stood out to me in your last lot of comments, that I felt I need to address it in a separate post.
Again, I will say that I respect your entitlement to your opinion, but I also value my own entitlement to say what offends me about them. You have overstepped the line in your last comments Sara. Let me tell you how:
1) You have attributed the strength of our faith and our church to Islam!!! What, pray tell gives you the right to evaluate the Christian faith or the Coptic church? What do you know of Orthodoxy?
it is well know that Egyptian coptics are one of the minorities that still keep faith in christinity...not as the western countries who forgot it...that's not because you are a great ppl...not that the main reason...but also you livied in a society that full of faith that helped you in that and didn't stop you.....
What an outrageous claim!!! How arrogant to attribute our steadfastness in preserving the faith to merely living in a Muslim society.
I'll tell you why the church still stands Sara. It is because of a promise Jesus gave us: upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Matthew 16:18
وعلى هذه الصخرة ابني كنيستي وابواب الجحيم لن تقوى عليها
In fact if it were up to some Muslims, Christianity should be eliminated from the land of the great Nile. Anwar Sadat himself made that claim at the Summit of Islamic Nations in the 1950's when he was Secretary of the State to Nasser.
2) Your claims that the kidnapped Coptic girls are merely tramps whose families didn't know how to raise them properly:
it is their family problems who failed to raise their girls on our real traditions and how to be polite and there are many limits in talking with boys....also wafaa kostantine who no one knows what happened to her after el dair took her.... she was knowing a Muslim friend in her work....how could a married woman do such thing...
go and fix those women and ladies ethics and don't make us -Muslims- the reason for every bad thing happen to you according to your bad raising for those families..
متشكرين جدا يا ست ساره. ربنا يكرمك و يكرم أصلك يا ستّى.
So that's what you feel, hey? That they're all worthless, immoral harlots? Do you feel the same about the Kossovar women who were raped by the Serbian soldiers, I wonder?
What about the girl who was on her way to becoming a nun? (Nevine Maher Albert)
What about the girl who called her family asking for help? (Theresa Ghattas)
How come they are all minors, except of course for Ms Costantine, who unwittingly became a champion for every Muslim wishing to deny the kidnappings?????????
3) Your insinuation that the Copts will "cop it" if the UN investigates.
in our Muslims eyes ..you will be the one who brought them to Egypt these organization are putting Egyptian Copts who lives in Egypt in the place of the enemyÂ
All I can say to that is, following your own logic, every surviving Jew from the Holocaust should hate all Germans
every American family who lost a loved one in Sept 11 should kill a Muslim person...
Aussie families who lost someone in Bali, kill a Muslim each
British people should lock up all British Muslims...what the hell, kill a few as well.
Then all Muslims should hate the Danes...
And all Jews...
Doesn't matter if these people have anything to do with the original offense...just hate them by association.
If you use that logic Sara, then we live in a jungle. That mentality strips us of the intellect that God gave us to set us apart from His other creation.
Besides, you forget a very important point. Why not fix the problem instead of just taking out the anger on innocent people.ولّا هو يعنى يبقى موت و خراب ديار؟؟؟
Also, nobody, I repeat NOBODY ever asked for foreign interference in any shape or form relating to millitary action!! Get that idea out of your head. If any Copt says it, I guarantee you they'll have to answer to us first. Ya Sara we all have families and childhood friends in Egypt...who wants to see their loved ones live through a war ya benty?????? It is no logical.
__________________________________________
Another issue I wish to clarify is your claims regarding how lucky Copts in Egypt should be:
* To not get offended and shocked like what happened to us with those cartoons
We never make fun of Jesus.
Is that a fact Sara? How about the books published by the Islamic Center for Enlightenment [see previous posts: (How Enlghtening) and (To Peter, Mohamed and Mustafa)]? Who are they making fun of?
What about Zaghloul el Naggar who writes for Al Ahram?? who is he offending?
What about sheikh el Sharawi (yes I'll mention him again) who gave himslef the right to "interpret" our Bible?
What about every tiny bit of sufferig inflicted on Christians in Islamic countries? You know that Jesus said: Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40
فيجيب الملك ويقول لهم الحق اقول لكم بما انكم فعلتموه باحد اخوتي هؤلاء الاصاغر فبي فعلتم
but in western countries they make fun of Jesus they hurt you deeply and you don't open your mouth to protest!!!
Who says we don't protest? Just because we don't burn buildings, go on a violent rampage, or issue a few death threats??
* You are living with all the forbidden in Christianity that is practiced in those western countries officially!! and you don't open your mouth to protest!!!
1) It isn't what happens outside of a Christian that affects their faith and relationship with God. A good Christian usually lights the way for those around them by setting a good example: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5:16
فليضئ نوركم هكذا قدام الناس لكي يروا اعمالكم الحسنة ويمجدوا اباكم الذي في السموات
2) What is it that happens here in the West that doesn't happen in Egypt?
* Alcohol, drugs and gambling? All happen in Egypt. Last I checked the drug problem in Egypt was far worse than it is here in Australia.
* Pre-marital sex? Happens in Egypt...except they cal it "Orfi marriage" over there!! I know! I know! you;ll say it is prohibited in Islam. That's not the point, point is IT HAPPENS. Difference is, here in the West if someone is doing something, they don't lie and hide.
* Homosexual relationships? again, happens in Egypt, and has happened for a loooooooooong time. It's just hidden in failed marriages and stolen affairs.
* Criticism of religions? Happens in Egypt. Difference is, here everyone is equal. In Egypt, only Islam is exempt from criticism.
The image of a immoral Westren soeciety with no values, is a symptom of the Arab mentality that is diseased with resentment and jealousy. I have lived here for half my life, and have seen so many solid families from all nationalities you can imagine. Families where there is respect, morals and good values taught to their children. Families that are no less cohesive than their Egyptian counterparts, if not more than some. I have friends who are just as honorable and dignified as my old Egyptian friends. I have friends who are more religious than many Egyptians are.
There are negatives here, sure! but what society is free of those? At least here people are open and honest and they don't hide from their problems.
You criticise me for pointing out faults in the Egyptian society, saying I don't live there and so I don't know what I'm saying. Yet there you are passing judgement on the Western society as a whole, and all you probably know of them is photos of half naked celebrities and sleazy stories about teenage pregnancies that the Arab media loves so much to bandy about.
but in those countries...they left the chiristinity aside and most of these countries became with no relegion....
The state and Church were separated. Religion and politics were separated. But people haven't just "left" Christianity. The Catholic church around the corner from my house fills up with so many worshippers every Sunday, they have to run 4 mass celebrations! And still, people are spilling out of the doors. And that's just one church! And generally, teh Catholic church is witnessing a revival (see David's post on the subject http://italiancatholic.blogspot.com/2006/03/new-fervor-among-young-italian.html)
you are in america, read news...hear huromers...visit at min annualy...not a day by day living
You forget that I was born and raised in Cairo. In Shoubra to be precise. You don't get any more "real Egyptian experience" than that! I grew up on a diet of molokheyia, fuol, Naguib Mahfouz, Abdel Halim, Om Kalthoum, Yousef Idriss, Tawfiq el Hakim, Taha Hussain, Ali Amin and Mostafa Amin. I wrote poems about Jamila Bu7reid, Arab unity and children of the Intifada for my Arabic homework. My grandfather actually graced the political prisons you seem to think only house Muslims. He was jailed repeatedly for "resisting the Brittish occupation" then again for protesting corruption in Nasser's time. My uncles were right there in Sinai when we were defeated in 1967. My father fought and was injured in the October 1973 war. I know what Egypt is, and what Egyptians are Sara. I don't just read about it in the papers!
If you're still reading, and you haven't fallen asleep out of boredom or turned off the computer out of anger, I wish you all the best Sara. I pray that one day you may start to understand what we are really saying, and stop assuming the worst in us.
God Bless you and your family.
posted by Bent El Neel at ١١:٢٣ م
18 Comments:
Pete! Pete! Pete!
You are so kind...really :), thank you. I'm very honoed to have your support, and I welcome you as a dear brother. Actually, you;re probably the only person crazy enough to read the whole post...it was 2 am and I think I got carried away in my semi-sleep state, lol! I can't believe how much i wrote!
Bless you Pete. I'm grateful to have you to give an insight as a Copt living in the States too.
peace :)
that was honored by the way, not honoed. I better remember to dos pell checks "before" i post, not "after"...
Dear neferteeti
I am sorry that you got offended personally from my posts, but it seems to me that we both talks in 2 different points…
But I'll try to redefine the questions and write again to you…I hope this time you'll not get hurt and I wish to deliver my point exactly.
First point I'll talk to you about Egyptian Coptic in Islam :
Our prophet told us to treat Coptic especially in a good way and to not harm you ever, and as you know what he (PBUH) said is an order.
I'll type down al hadith, and I'll give you a link to the site of our greatest Islamic scientist nowadays, Dr. Yousef Al Karadawy:
* "الله الله في قبط مصر، فإنكم ستظهرون عليهم، ويكونون لكم عدة وأعوانًا في سبيل الله"
*"...فاستوصوا بهم خيرًا، فإنهم قوة لكم، وبلاغ إلى عدوكم بإذن الله" يعني قبط مصر
*"إنكم ستفتحون أرضًا يُذكر فيها القيراط، فاستوصوا بأهلها خيرًا، فإن لهم ذمة ورحمًا".
وفي رواية: "إنكم ستفتحون مصر، وهي أرض يسمى فيها القيراط فإذا فتحتموها فأحسنوا إلى أهلها، فإن لهم ذمة ورحمًا"
*"إذا فُتِحت مصر فاستوصوا بالقبط خيرًا، فإن لهم دماً ورحمًا"
And if you want to read the whole article then goes to Sheikh Yousef's website page about Egyptian Copts
Egyptian coptics in Islam _click here
as you read it is not an option to treat you good , it is a must, the same as no Muslim whatever it is can be Muslim without believing in all prophets including Jesus (PBUH), that's why I told you will not see cartoons or something like that.
About those books about Christianity that you talk about, it is existed the same as yours about Islam,,,as your websites that is every where showing how bad is Islam…
And you can't deny the play that led to the Mary gerges blow up in Alexandria which you despised from Islam, also what about the pal talk chat rooms that talks very bad about Islam and it is all staged in a silly way..
Also there are many debates between Muslim scientists and Christian priests face to face, it is every where and every time.
One last thing about this point, you are worrying about Muslim brotherhood as if they will kill you if they got the political power in Egypt..
To be fair, it won't happen because of what I wrote about Copts in Islam, also here is an interview with their leader….he was asked about Coptic…and that was the answer
"• اتقوا الله نصارى ومسلمين, فلم يكن هناك في وقت من الأوقات في مصر ما نسميه بالفتنة الطائفية التي جلبها إلى مصر الاميركيون في عهد الرئيس الراحل السادات، وطول عمر الأقباط والمسلمين يعيشون نسيجا واحدا في مصر تربطهم الصداقات، والمصالح المشتركة ضخمة، لا تؤثر فيها هذه الأمور المفتعلة التي تخدم هذه القوى العالمية الفاجرة.
• يجرنا ذلك للحديث عن علاقة «الإخوان» بالأقباط إذن؟
ـ علاقتنا بالأقباط جيدة وطيبة جدا من قديم الزمن، منذ نشأة الجماعة أيام الإمام الشهيد مؤسس الجماعة الشيخ حسن البنا ـ رحمه الله ـ وتستمر حتى اليوم, فعلاقتي أنا شخصيا بكثير من الأقباط من رموزهم وقياداتهم علاقة طيبة جدا حيث نتبادل الزيارات."
Full interview go to that link and read the section read that article_click here
read the section started with
"عاكف لـ «الرأي العام»: دعوتا أبو مازن الى عدم عسكرة الانتفاضة وعلاوي أفندي إلى القاء السلاح جاهلتان"
Let's now go to the point, which concerns about your actual feelings of persuasion…
I told you before that I know that you have problems with building and repairing churches, but I told you too that it is one in a list of million demands that the Egyptian both Muslims and Christians needs from the government….
When I drove you the example of the village that is 3km away from village and 10kms away from school….i tried to tell you the actual state here…
I told you before that I'll feel free to talk about the problem because it touched our country with all its good and bad sides…
You are feeling bad about relegion discrimination in Egypt…which the fact doesn't include all the Copts in Egypt…
We are 77 millions …..All those accedents that happened to you come from how many Muslims??? And much more that you don't know nefeteeti that Copts are involved in those accedents too…
The national security doesn't go on that type of ascidians because both parties "Copts and Muslims " are involved in the accedient..And because of Copts that type of cases got persecution look and you start to talk about discrimination, but if that fight happened between 2 Copts or 2 Muslims then it would go on its ordinary passage in the police station..
Moreover,,,,What makes you sure that Copts are innocent in those accidents…the fight always started between a Muslim and a Coptic… are all Coptic are innocent and you are all angels ???? Be logic…
One last thing to add about that second point:
Today I was watching an interview with the American ambassador in Egypt who was asked about the Coptic discrimination…
He answered that he heard about it but when he came to Egypt he saw that it is an individual acts that happened everywhere all over the world…
And that is the problem of the minorities even in USA, they feel that every bad thing happened to them because of the minority issue….
You talk about prisons…and your father had been there….and my cusin was there too and he almost lost his life when he came out..
Much more, he didn't do anything bad that time but all his fault was his sitster's husband was a brother hood member at abd al Nasser regime… more and more my relative and his mum" my unt's mother in law" all went to jail for nothing but a relatives to a brother hood member..
I also lost cousins in the war…also my uncles shared in the war…
It is our rule as Egyptians…and abd al naser was a past for Muslims as the saddat was a past for Christians…. Does that relieve you?
That is the Copts in Islam , you are special…that's why I told you that we helped you to keep your faith…. I didn't say that you are not great ppl…I said it is not the main reason…
Because in Europe there were great Christians too who couldn't keep Christianity strong in Europe…
You drove me examples about what families do in those countries….the same as Muslim families do in that countries…but here in Egypt you don't struggle to raise them with faith…because it is around you..
You are talking about drugs and homosexuals…as if I don't know about it…
Yes there are bad ppl every where even in the life our prophets those bad ppl were there…there is no perfect city…
But the difference that I don't see it on the street… it is up normal and horrific seen to see 2 couples kissing in the street as an example…
By law they'll go to jail, am I right?فعل فاضح في الطريق العام
Here in Egypt I never saw drugs or homosexuals by my own eyes…even "el gawaz el 3orfy" I only read about it …doesn't recall a case that I know personally
I know that things happen but it is not an obligation to see it by your own eyes
But in western countries, those things are illegal, I saw homosexuals and prostitutes in the streets in the morning in Paris…
Why should I talk about it??? Didn't you read mikel's opinion about religion and God on his blog??
Even Mario on that blog he was talking about hurting his feelings while sawing Danish women walking in sheets …..
Here in Egypt bad ppl is hiding bad things like what you mentioned because it is illegal but out there in Europe it is shown you because it is legal…
To get closer to the point..
You may face that question with your kid…what is homosexuals, why do they kissed, what is that thing they inhaling "drugs"…but here it is very rare that a mother like me could face all that type of questions..
I have a problem only with movies and video clips but you out there have much more to face….-I deal with it by watching cartoons:))-
BTW that's also the reason that many Muslim families terminate their stays in western countries and in USA …. Raising their children…. Coptic I knew they left egypt when their kids became adults….i don't know the rest.
Here comes the worest about perscuation
Egypter said
" Sara -
Find me a Copt who said that they want to split up our Egypt!!!
Find me one!!
Find me a COPT who said this.
It's the fanatics who are the ones saying this."
You said
" No Copt I have ever spoken to (and believe I have spoken to many) ever agreed to this ridiculous notion of a separate Coptic state. They are all outraged by the suggestion."
Well I am sorry to tell you that those organizations reached that point
Changing Middle East, Means Change Corrupt Despotic Regimes_ click here
please go on and read specially the highlighted point
"Self-determination, and self-ruling for non- Arab citizens should not be excluded if Islamic regimes refuse to comply with these legitimate rights."
And I posted before what mikkel's mounir said about asking for American protection…
Also that copts4freedom said to an news press called youbi that they will separate in a 4 year …..i tried to bring you that release from their site but the search feature is not working:((((
But here is the event as we heard from all the news press…that link is from al arabiya not a forum or whatever
مصر: أقباط يطالبون "بالحكم الذاتي" وتدخل شارون وأمريكا في أزمة "إسلام زوجة الكاهن"
but I brought you up what copts4free said about isreal
التحالف القبطي من اجل الحرية_click here
read that:
كما قرر الاتحاد أن يقوم وفدا من أعضاء التحالف بزيارة إسرائيل للحصول علي دعمها في سعينا للحرية أمام الحكومة الأمريكية, بحكم أن الأقباط وإسرائيل أصبحتا مهددين بعدو مشترك واحد وهو أن مصر أصبحت جمهورية إسلامية راعية للإرهاب علي غرار إيران . وسيعلن عن هذه الزيارة ونتائجها بعد إنجازها. وعلي الباغي تدور الدوائر. بارك المسيح مصر وشعبها المسيحي القبطي.
You will say that you don't support them….but they are taking actions , they go to the congress and speak…and after all that you'll still tell me that those ppl are worrying about copts families in egypt???????
That is the main point here….that is the abuse of your case…those are trying to mess up our society….
You want me to agree with you to all your claims????
You are protesting about that priest "القس المشلوح" although all the actions had been taken against the newspaper.
All Egyptians including 93% muslims take 7th of july a vacation because of your feast.
Do you know that banks here in egypt take more official vacations because of your feasts, that because you were a big percentage working in banks before 1952 although you are not a majority any more but bankers still take those days as vacation because of coptics feasts..
You have yr channel….yr Sunday prayer is on tv every week…
Till me is that all happen to the minority muslims in any country???
Muslims are 10% in India "more than yours in egypt" and they have not these privileges…"they are not immigrants as you know"
i hope that you don't get angry from my long posts....
but what shall i do...
you write post me....i tried to cover many points not all....because i felt that i'll be silly to corrupt the appearnce of your comments by the long posts of mine;)
forgive me
Hi Neferteeti,
This to inform you to read my comment on 'To Peter,Mohamed and Muslim' post.
Thanks,
Sara
You don't need to apologise, I wasn't "angry". You expressed an opinion and I expressed how i felt about that opinion...that's how a discussion goes.
I'd like you to understand that I don't just enjoy discussion for the sake of discussion. Nor am I here to force my opinion on anyone. As i said before I'm enjoying the discussion as long we are learning something from it. By now I think we bothe delivered our opinions and presented them several times in several ways. So to begin with, i think we should agree to disagree. I'm not into chasing our tails in circles.
Now I'll address points where I can see that I can add something new to the discussion.
Peace
RE: Comments on the Coptic church, and your notion that it only florished in Egypt because of Islam:
If that were true, the Coptic church wouldn't have survived in the Western countries where Copts migrated to. The migration of the Copts has been ongoing for over 50 years to Australia, Canada, USA, and many European countries...not to mention in some Latin American countries too.
The Coptic church in the diaspora has been florishing and many priests have been ordained to serve those churches, mostly from the diaspora Coptic communities themsleves (we don't just "import" priests from Egypt anymore...many of the youth who were born here are being ordained now). NOt only that, we now have our Bishops here too.
Not only that!!! there is a growing interest in joining the Coptic church by people from all different nationalities and faiths and sects. In fact, here in Australia, the Coptic church found it necessary to run a series of lectures on Coptic history, theology and tradition for all those interested to learn (and there's a lot of those).
So you see Sara, the Coptic church has not only existed, but florished and grown in any society and under all circumstances. It has nothing to do with being in a Muslim society or a Western secular country. Whether we are free or oppressed, whether those around us are pious, fundamentalists, tolerant or secular...whether our churches are being burnt or not.
The Coptic church is steadfast because it is a Holy Apostolic church..
Built on a strong foundation of faith..
Protected by the King of Kings..
She survives anywhere because you can't hide the true light of Jesus Christ.
The Coptic church survives because of her inner strength not because of what's happening external to her.
You may see it differently, and you have the right to. So we'll just agree to disagree on that one!!
Now on your favorite subject of that indepeb=ndant Coptic state:
You reference AlArabiya.net!!! This is a news service from the GULF COUNTRIES!!! Do you expect to find anything neutral or objective there on anything regarding Mid East Christians? Even if we were to assume you could. This is what the article said:
"وناشدت مواقع قبطية على الإنترنت رئيس وزراء إسرائيل أرييل شارون والحكومة الأمريكية التدخل في هذه القضية. كما طالب عدد من الأقباط المصريين غالبيتهم في الولايات المتحدة بحكم ذاتي للأقباط في مصر."
All that says is: Some internet sites have requested Ariel Sharon and the US to intervene. And a number of Copts, mostly from the US have demanded an independant Coptic state"
The article doesn't reference any source or a contact or the names of those who allegedly requested this. It is actually a very poor article from a very poor news service. Extremely biased and knows exactly how to play with words enough to ignite the ire of their readers (mostly Muslims).
Just feed them a nice meal of a Christian prevented from embracing Islam, add a couple of lines about outrageous demands of splitting up a Muslim country made to the big devil USA...and throw in Israel for a bit if spice...guaranteed to light your fire!!!
Nobody will notice the absence of proof, references or sources. After all, if you get your daily dose of news from Alarabiya.net, you probably aren't familiar with good journalism anyway!
RE: Copts for freedom:
I personally don't know anything about them. They obviously operate out of the USA
Pete: can you shed any light on this for us?
But I can tell you this Sara:
1)If they indeed wanted to visit Israel, why haven't they? This article was published in November, we're in march now.
If they did go, they wouldn't have had any support from the wider Coptic community. I personally intend on corresponding with them to express my absolute disagreement on this.
2)Sara, Copts are not even allowed to visit their Holy sites in Jerusalem by order of our Pope...do u think we'd go as far as requesting Israel's intervention?? Who is going to support that move???
RE: the prophet's instructions on how to treat Copts.
With all due respect Sara, in reality it doesn't matter what a religious text says as long as some of its followers are determined to ignore it.
I'm not saying that all Muslims are bad of course. But you can't deny that some Muslims do horrific things in the name of Islam. It's always been my feeling that moderate Muslims prefer to lecture the rest of the world on how good Islam is, instead of trying to prevent these wrong ideologies from spreading to begin with.
It's as good as lecturing people on how great a law is, instead of putting precautions in the society to prevent crime in the first place, or at least contain and punish the criminals.
Besides, there is also plenty of Islamic text that tells Muslims to kill infidels and subdue unbelievers. I know Christianity is a recognised religion in Islam. BUt with so many turbanned lunatics telling the Muslim community that Christians have corrupted their original faith, then they are no longer the people of the Book the Quran tells u to be good to. They have become infidels and unbelievers in the eyes of their Muslim counterparts.
On the subject of books against Islam and books against Christianity (and internet sites etc)
I wasn't arguing whether or not they should exist. I was highlighting the hypocricy and irony. Anti-Christian books and media sources are plentiful in the Mid East and Islamic world...but if anyone says a word against Islam anywhere they go into hysteria. A lot of Muslims give themselves rights they deny other people. Thats what i was tying to get across.
Finally, don't apologise for posting long comments. Your comments are welcome any time.
Just please note that I may not address every word. Like I said before, I don't like going around in circles. If I have previously stated an opinion on something or argued a certain point, I won't address it again unless I have something new to add.
Peace be with you.
Pete:
Mohamed's comments that he is refering to are in this blog on a previous post.
Perhaps I'll see u there soon :)
For now, I gotta go rest a while (maybe a couple of days actually). I'm afraid I'm getting ill again (damned weather keeps getting hot and cold). But here's my email address if you'd like to keep in touch:
nefert_80@yahoo.com.au
hi neferteeti
i'm very interested in reading your replies....
i have many points want to discuss with you , but actually i'll be busy for at maximum one week....
when i'll come back i'll reply to you...
take care of yourself..:)
Alf Salama :)
Hope to recover soon...
Curious to hear your comment on my comment;),Peter.
It's in the post named"To Peter,Mohamed and Muslim"Post in Neferteeti's blog.
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