الأربعاء، مايو ١٦، ٢٠٠٧

Beware: This is a strictly ONE-WAY religion

Ever considered becoming a Muslim? Think carefully! Because it's a strictly one way road... moreover, if you live in Egypt, the blessed government and even the juidiciary system will enforce this rule

?Freedom of worship, they told you
They lied

well not entirely...you are after all free to "become a Muslim". But woe to you should you decide to turn back

?A constitution and rule of the law they said
!My friend you have been fooled

Read this

A decision by an Egyptian administrative court earlier last month has sent the Christian community into an uproar over what they have termed the continuation of religious intolerance by the government.

The controversial new law states that Christians who convert to Islam for whatever reason and wish to revert to their Christian status on identification papers are forbidden from doing so. Muslims converts to Christianity wishing to go back to being listed as followers of Islam, on the other hand, are not barred from such an act.

Christian clergy and intellectuals in the country have expressed resentment toward the ruling, calling it a "step backward" and contradictory to Egypt's citizenship laws. They argue that the court's decision undoubtedly moves Egypt nearer to being a theocratic state.

In Egypt, Christians have been known to convert to Islam in order to marry Muslims - non-Muslim men must convert on paper to Islam before being allowed to marry Muslim women. The new law, the government argues, is an attempt to maintain religious integrity, but many Egyptians believe it is a move to ensure that Muslim numbers are maintained.

"As a Muslim, I say that there is no limit to the freedom of religion and, without it, heaven and hell would be ... meaningless as the Koran assures the individual freedom of belief and disbelief [and] in return [people] are responsible for their choice," Mohammed Munir Mogahed, a founding member of Egyptians Against Religious Segregation, said recently in the Egyptian daily, Al Masry Al Youm.

Mogahed added that the Muslim holy text did not give rules concerning apostasy, arguing that religious scholars' opinions on the matter had been controversial.

"We can compare this issue to citizenship, as every Egyptian has the right to give up his or her citizenship and take on a different one, and there is nothing against him or her" for doing so, he pointed out.

The case began in 2005 when 45 Christians wishing to convert back to Christianity from Islam asked Egypt's ministry of interior for new identification papers and birth certificates that stated they were Christians.

The interior ministry refused to issue the papers saying it didn't see a legal reason for doing so, regarding the petitioners' request as playing with religion to suit their needs.

The Egyptian constitution grants freedom of religion to all citizens.

Meanwhile, Christian clergy have also voiced their concern over the new law, saying that Christians must take a serious stand against the law and object to the oppression of the government.

Morqous Aziz, a Coptic priest, recently told reporters that there would be an appeal of the ruling.

"This is ... oppression against all religions and the [Egyptian] Constitution. The Pope will do something about the matter," Aziz said.

The decision comes as religious tensions in Egypt are mounting. Last year, the Supreme Authoritative Court of Egypt ruled that Bahais were not allowed to be identified by their religious beliefs on their personal documents.

The court's decision upheld government policy to deny Bahais the right to receive identification cards, birth certificates, education, and even medical care, compelling many to declare themselves on official documents as followers of one of the three officially permitted religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) - in effect, committing fraud - out of necessity.

Meanwhile, Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights director Hossam Bahgat told the Middle East Times that the controversial law was a "manipulation of Islam," reflecting moral prejudice by the government.

"The right to freedom of religion, including the right to change one's religion, is guaranteed under the Egyptian Constitution, the Civil Status Law, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and, notably, Islamic Sharia [Muslim law]."

In December 2004, Egypt's Grand Mufti, Ali Gomaa, issued a fatwa (religious edict) on the matter, saying that those who return to Christianity after adopting Islam were "apostates."

"The religion of Islam vis-à-vis the state and the social structure is a matter to be left to the administration, according to an assessment of benefits and harms, and of how this conduct is in accordance with the constitution and the applicable laws, and of its impact on social security and national peace," Gomaa said in 2004.

The ruling has left many activists sour, especially those striving for a more open and tolerant society in the Arab world's largest nation.

"Islam, in my opinion, is a religion of mercy and justice, and it cannot be treated as a trap [so that] once you are in it, there is no way out," Mogahed maintained.

and tell me, why is Islam so scared to let people choose? Why is the governemnt so determined to keep religion in the forefront of the average Egyptian's life?

Where is the freedom of worship we so often hear about, and which is supposedly guaranteed by Islam and protected by the law in our Egypt???????


Blogger CMinor said...

I stopped by today by chance--it's good to se you're posting again.

As a citizen of a secular state, I always find the concept of having religious identifiers on legal documents at all incongruous. It seems to me that the only possible use of such identifiers is to give preference to certain faiths or use the info as a stick to beat others.

Religious people can and do carry voluntary identifiers in case of genuine need--a medal around the neck, an "in case of emergency call a priest" card in the wallet. Other than that, it's really nobody else's business how I pray!

Anti-Catholicism that led to job discrimination and harassment hasn't been so long gone in the US that people my age can't recall its effects. Better not to give the bigots ammunition.

مايو ١٧, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hi Cminor
Always good to hear from you :)

The problem has gone beyond mere religious intolerance (not that this is a simple matter by aby means anyway). What's happening now is that the government, and the justice system is supporting Islamist agenda:

If a Christian becomes a Muslim, their ID papers are changed to proclaim the new faith within days.

If a Muslim becomes Christian, they're lucky if they can escape Egypt alive! And many live as Christians in secret.

It's an injustice! Abhorrent and totally disgusting :(

مايو ١٨, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger A Free Man said...

The reason Muslims are forbidden from leaving Islam, is, I beleive, most of them given a choice would leave, go athiest or convert to other religions.

مايو ١٩, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Will E. said...

Free Man.. nawart el ma7kama

مايو ٢٠, ٢٠٠٧  
Anonymous faisal said...

I strongly disagree with a couple of points you've made. I've responded in a post on my own blog.

مايو ٢١, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger xavier said...

Never forget that you copts are scum to Moslems. Scum for refusing to renounce the heritage of your fathers and not bowing down to Moslem supremecism.
Your very existence is an affront to Moslems, they become hysterical and need to show you whose rulez

مايو ٢٧, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

welcome everyone and sorry about the delay in responding.

God willing I'll have a read of your post and we can talk more.

Bless u amico mio :) good to hear from u!

Perhaps some Muslims think we are scum... but that doesn't change what we are: FREE EGYPTIANS who deserve just the same rights as our Muslim compatriots do: nothing less, nothing more.

Free man and Will e.
Sorry guys I didn't quite get what u meant Will?!

مايو ٢٩, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger xavier said...

Glad to see you back as well :)

Ofcourse you're equal; but not enough Moslems in Egypt genuinely support the idea or do anything about it. They're deeply riled that Copts simply won't give up the heritage of their fathers for the false benefits of Islam

مايو ٢٩, ٢٠٠٧  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

Your blog has been included in the Review of North African blogs on Pambazuka News

يونيو ٠٥, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Omar said...

Talk about reactionary comments.

First of all, there's a serious misunderstanding going on here, and it's certainly NOT made any better by people jumping in saying that to Moslems, Copts are scum. That's just a lie. A lie on historical as well as religious grounds.

People should have a better idea of what they're talking about before they mouth off like that.

Ever since Islam started, it has been favorable to both Judaism and Christianity. They are both referred to as 'people of the book', and it's no accident that only Islam, of the 3 major religions embraces both Judaic and Christian prophets as being authentic. Surely, it's discourteous of others to not react in kind.

In any case - and regarding this specific matter: PART of Islam is that you cannot 'de-moslem' once you've become one. Forget Egypt and Egyptian Law - it's part and parcel of the religion. If you've never been a Moslem, that's nice and fine. No shame, no blame - BUT if you choose to be a Moslem - then you have CHOSEN to go down a one-way street - in the clear knowledge that it IS a one-way street - if you don't know that, then you're an idiot who's converted without doing their homework. Plain and simple. Trying to back up halfway down the street is just wrong. In Islam - you're called a 'Morttad' - and it's NOT a good thing. In fact, it's quite severely punishable. If you don't like that, then DON'T become a Moslem.

Blaming a government for the consequences of your own choices is just silly.

It's not fashion, it's a religion, and if you don't like its rules, then don't embrace it. Then its rules won't apply to you.

يونيو ٠٥, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger CMinor said...

أزال المؤلف هذا التعليق.

يونيو ٠٧, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger CMinor said...

Strong words, Omar. What if it wasn't your choice to become Muslim, but a decision made for you by your parents?

Islam may accept Christian "prophets," but as it does not accept them on Christian terms, i.e. that Jesus was the Son of God, it should hardly expect that Christians should respond "in kind" by accepting Mohammed as the final and greatest prophet. Those are mutually exclusive options; you can't have both.

يونيو ٠٧, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Omar said...

1st of all - if your parents are Muslim, or anything else for that matter, all that makes you is a child. IF and WHEN you choose to adopt a religion, then you become whatever it is you choose to be. You're not born Muslim, Buddhist, or Sub-Genius - and I'd strongly disagree with anybody who claims otherwise.

As for Muslims 'agreeing' that Jesus was 'The Son of God' being comparable to Christians 'accepting 'Mohamad as a prophet -

1. Those are obviously not the same class of things. The simple fact is that if Christians were to accept Mohamad as a prophet, they would, by definition, cease to be Christians and instantly become Muslims - so no, I don't think any Muslims expect acceptance - but it's certainly not unreasonable to expect, at the very least, respect.

More importantly, perhaps:

2. Jesus HIMSELF did not consider himself a 'son of god' except in what obviously seems a non-exclusive way. Even ONE 'OUR heavenly father' makes that abundantly clear to anybody but the imperialist tweakers at the Council of Nicea. Do your homework. Jesus could only provide a human example by being strictly human, and the trinity is a long post-mortem fabrication.

يونيو ١٤, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger CMinor said...

1. Respect is gained by being given. The problems that Bent discusses all originate with Christians in majority Muslim countries not being given respect.

2. It is indeed not quite the same thing for me to ask you to accept Jesus as the Son of God as it is for you to ask me to accept Mohammed as the final prophet of God on whose words all authority rests. But the fact that you yourself stated that belief in one of those qualities cancels out the other makes me think you understand my point very well. And you, after all, were the one complaining that Christians did not "accept" your Prophet.

3.The question of whether Jesus declared Himself to be the Son of God is not as open-and-shut as you would have it, or it wouldn't have been a core tenet of Christianity for the last two thousand years. There is a considerable body of scriptural evidence supporting that belief--it's not just something a handful of renegade first-century Jews made up out of their own heads that was blindly followed by ignorant slaves and peasants ever after. There has been a two-thousand year history of study of the question ever since, by some of the greatest minds the world has known. You approach the question from a strictly Islamic perspective, disregarding the preceding five hundred years of study and discussion. Perhaps you need to do some homework, yourself. And perhaps you also need to reflect upon your attitude to the beliefs of others when you deplore the fact that so many of them won't accept yours.

يونيو ١٨, ٢٠٠٧  
Anonymous faisal said...

I just felt that I should say, in response to one point Omar mentioned, that no religion want people converting into it and then changing their mind or whatever one wishes to call it.

The punishment of death for that only happened after Mohammed's death. Even when I considered myself a Muslim, history, and reading history, supports this view.

People should be allowed to follow whatever religion they believe in, if any.

If god exists, then he will dole out reward and/or punishment. Religions, all of them, have the essential element of choice... or god, if he exists, would not have sent prophets.

He'd have genetically imprinted it into you or did some other thing.

As for the divinity of Jesus... and I honestly say this to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists or whomever; why on earth is this a topic of debate?!

Because of my personal beliefs. or lack of - in this case -, I don't think he is... but even if he was... what difference does that make to the fact that you people should do good. Don't steal, don't cheat, be kind to others, help them out etc etc etc.

What allows me, personally, to fully accept most "heavenly religions'" teachings is that they're things that I believe everyone SHOULD follow... even if these religions didn't exist.

I think it's that simple, though I'm sure many will disagree.

يونيو ٣٠, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger CMinor said...

Your remarks are well and reasonably stated, Faisal.

Please understand that I am not seeking to launch a discussion on the divinity of Christ, which after all, is ultimately an article of faith. I wanted to point out that, if one is going to take issue with the fundamental beliefs of others, one should be familiar with all the theological evidence and not just one side.

Not trying to artificially stretch this thread; just wanted to let you know your comments were appreciated. As we seem to have wandered well off-topic, I'll leave it at that.

يوليو ٠٢, ٢٠٠٧  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

Faisal is a wise person.

If God is all knowing and all powerful and all wise, why would God need mere mortals defending God's honor?

Me, I take the insights of religion and reject all the hateful madness that is causing so much trouble around the world.

Somebody here says Islam respects other "people of the book", namely other Middle East monotheisms like Christianity and Judaism. What about the rest of us humans? What is our fate, if we allow you world domination?

أغسطس ٠٩, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Death artist said...

dont judge muslims, judge islam (:

أغسطس ٣١, ٢٠٠٧  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

In fact, I wanted to search to learn Coptic language, I am Egyptian, Muslim, Coptic,,, but sorry... I found Egyptian Coptic the most racist over the world... I live abroad and have friends from many countries... Many of them transferred from Christianity to Buddhist or Hindu and say that Christianity is the most NEGATIVE religion,,,
So that, they become atheist and other religion… I found and they found there are campaigns to promote for Christianity here… so that, it clear that US pay and the Christian do….

What shame

أكتوبر ٠٣, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...


you say that people should know what hey are talking about before they speak...I agree with you.


you didn't take your own advice!!!

Ever since Islam started, it has been favorable to both Judaism and Christianity. They are both referred to as 'people of the book', and it's no accident that only Islam, of the 3 major religions embraces both Judaic and Christian prophets as being authentic. Surely, it's discourteous of others to not react in kind.

1) Islam was never truly kind to Jews and Christians. Ask the Jewish tribes he ordered annhiliated then took the women and children as slaves!!!

2) The Quran calls us people of the book in certain verses....then it claims that our Holy Books have been corrupted and changed and therefore we are all infidels

3) Just because Islam accepts (in your opinion) Judaism and Christianity....this doesn't mean Jews and Christians have to accept Islam!!! That's outrageous!!! With all due respect, Mohammad is no prophet to me and I am not obligated to respect him as a prophet.

I do however respect your right to think and believe that he is.

Forget Egypt and Egyptian Law - it's part and parcel of the religion

Great then we agree that Islam does not respect freedom of choice, expression or belief!

And no we can't forget Egyptian law...it's the law!!

Blaming a government for the consequences of your own choices is just silly

And a religion that deprives you from having a free thought is just silly!!


that no religion want people converting into it and then changing their mind or whatever one wishes to call it.

Yes but no religion except Islam orders the death of those who choose to leave it!!!!!!!!!!

أكتوبر ٠٨, ٢٠٠٧  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...


I found Egyptian Coptic the most racist over the world..

Yes definetely. It's so obvious too!! That's why they're the ones getting discriminated against, intimidated, marginalised, bullied, insulted, and sometimes even killed!!!

Please mate! Give me a break!!!!

Many of them transferred from Christianity to Buddhist or Hindu and say that Christianity is the most NEGATIVE religion,,,

1) this in no addresses the core of the post: Freedom of choice, belief and expression in Islam.

2) If some people find Christianity negative, that's fine....it's their perogative to make up their own minds and choose a faith where they find themselves

3) I also have many ex-Muslim friends who found Islam suffocating, oppressive and demeaning to one's free will and intellect.
So what?!

أكتوبر ٠٨, ٢٠٠٧  
Anonymous A muslim said...

Hi for every one,

First of all sorry to comment as Anonymous, but there is no need to know about my actual personality. Specifically that it's allowed on that blog.

That's true that I was born Muslim, my family are all Muslims, my society also. So the question is; If I weren't born as Muslim, would I choose to follow Islam?!!

From here we can start. If we made it like a simple compare between Christianity and Islam.

No insult to Christianity but untill now it's so complicated, and have more than one thing which may be described as pagan.

I was watching the celebration of Christian brothers in Egypt of the new year in the night of 7th January. I was wondering of that religious singing, actually I did not understand a word. I wonder how Arab Christians feel these words by their soul and heart when they don't understand what is said?!!

I was watching also today a program called 'Jesus camp', I wondered of what the preacher did after hewr word, she said to them; 'Come, wash yourselves, purify yourselves' and then she poured from a bottle of water written on it 'Nestle' on their hands!! Will this water wash out their sins?!! And if it's their belief which will wash the sins not this water, so why it have been poured on theri hands?!!

On the other hand; the belief that Jesus is a son of the Lord is so strange and lead to other consequences.

Many kings of the old age claimed to be sons of God and the first of them is Pharaohs. So it's not a new thing.

Also this belief will make us ask many questions. If he is really the son of the God so why he was eating and drinking as any normal human?!! And if he was the son of the God so why he was worshipping Him?!! And if he was His son why the people he was sent to them did not told us that clearly?!! And why his people wondered for the miracles he did (I mean that God'd power is absloute so no wonder to heal an ill man or make the blind see, but prophet's miracles like Abraham and Moses must made them wonder as human)?!! And is there a 'human prophet' after 'the son of the God'?!! And if he is the son of the Lord so why Christians consider the son more than the father?!! And who was the mother of son of God?!! And many many other questions which need to be answered.

Also I'm intersted to ask any Christian if he\she has the courage to dicuss with his\her priest things like the seven secrets, or the nature of Jesus, etc.

Also if a Christian made sin, where will he go?!! To God or to a human just like him to ask for forgiveness?!!
A Muslim will ask Allah and only Allah to forgive him, there is no mediation between man and God in Islam. A Muslim will say; 'Allah, I made a sin, and you saw what I did and know what I did. Please forgive me', but a Christian will say; 'Father, you didn't see what I did and you don't what I did, so I'm telling you; I stole or whored. Please forgive me.'
So, I wonder here, should I make a scandal to myself to be forgived. For myself, I don't like that any one other except Allah to know about my sin, even the father, mother or an Imam.
I think that these things will make me think hundred times before converting to Christianity.

As for Islam. mmmmm
It says to me; Worship Allah the Only one which has no father, wife or son, don't worship man-made gods, don't worship idols, love others, cooperate, make the earth more beautiful, contemplate in Universe to reach the truth, be kind to your parents even if they aren't Muslims, love your neighbours even if they aren't Muslims, appreciate your mind, etc.
I think that these are things which will make me think to convert Islam.


Sorry for speaking toooo much ;). But these words came out from the motive of love to you, not hatred. All what I can do is to hope that they touch your heart and minds and make you just simply think. And ask yourselves; 'If I wasn't born as a Christian, in a society which believe in no God, what may make Christianity so distinguished to be followed than any other belief?!!'

Please don't draw a smile by the right of your mouth and nod by your head.

Thanks for being patient to read all these words.

And thanks for Neferteti for allowing me to comment here.

Peace for every one of you,

يناير ١٤, ٢٠٠٨  
Blogger Amillennialist said...

Omar, et al,

When you speak of Islamic tolerance of Jews and Christians, you must be referring to the following:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

Or perhaps:

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah" (Qur'an 3:28).

You must have meant this:

"Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him"'" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177).

Silly me! You had to be thinking of this:

". . . We were (sitting) in the mosque when the Messenger of Allah . . . came to us and said: (Let us) go to the Jews. We went out with him until we came to them. The Messenger of Allah . . . stood up and called out to them (saying): O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe.

[. . .]

"he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah . . . who granted them security. They embraced Islam. The Messenger of Allah . . . turned out all the Jews of Medlina. Banu Qainuqa' (the tribe of 'Abdullah b. Salim) and the Jews of Banu Haritha and every other Jew who was in Medina.

[. . .]

"It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah . . . say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4363-4366)."

I know, this is it:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust" (Qur'an 5:51).

Or was it:

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures" (Qur'an 98:6).

Certainly, here is the font of Islamic tolerance:

"Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle . . . said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger . . ." (Muslim Book 37, Number 6666).

أغسطس ٠٢, ٢٠٠٨  
Blogger Amillennialist said...

a muslim,

By whose definition of "love" do you operate? Christ's, or Allah's?

For Allah's love extends in deed truly only to Muslim males who kill and are killed fighting in his way (women, girls, apostates, and non-Muslims are to be enslaved, raped, and/or butchered. Even women who kill for Allah are no better than chattel).

What promise can you cite from Qur'an or Sunnah that you will see Paradise? Qur'an 9:111?

Christ's love, however, extends to even His enemies. When He died to reconcile humanity to His Father, He died for all people. Christ even prayed for the forgiveness of His murderers.

He shows His mercy to all, even those who hate Him.

That's not like Allah's false "mercy" which really means, "If you convert, we won't kill you or rape your daughters."

I hope that you will trust in and obey the Son of the Living God.



P.S., On numerous occasions Christ called Himself the Son of God, including taking for Himself the divine name by which YHWH revealed Himself to Moses, "I AM." His fellow Jews, including the experts in the Law, recognized this also, wanting to kill Him for blasphemy by claiming to be equal with the only God.

أغسطس ٠٢, ٢٠٠٨  
Anonymous Faisal said...


that no religion want people converting into it and then changing their mind or whatever one wishes to call it.

Yes but no religion except Islam orders the death of those who choose to leave it!!!!!!!!!!"

Did you happen to miss the part where I, someone who was raised a Muslim, talked to Omar, who is obviously a Muslim, in a comment, on YOUR blog, telling him that the punishment for death came after Mohammed died.

This means, in more basic terms so that everyone gets me, that it was decided upon afterwards. It was NOT something that was sent in the Qur'an or in Mohammed's sayings or any of that stuff.


That people think it is the punishment now (both Muslims and anyone else) is sad. That Muslim Clerics actually send out edicts saying that these people need to be killed is Shameful.

BUT, and this is the important part, this "punishment" was never mandated by the religion as per Mohammed's teachings/the Qur'an.

سبتمبر ١١, ٢٠٠٨  
Blogger Amillennialist said...


"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him" (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57).

سبتمبر ١٢, ٢٠٠٨  
Anonymous faisal said...

I see.

Any more quotes? You'd think that something that serious would be mentioned in the Qur'an since a lot less "important" issues have been.

What do you know about Islamic History exactly? Or when people started "leaving" Islam.

What do you know about the various hadiths and the discourse about how authentic most of them are in religious circles?

But seriously... something that important... and you have one source where someone quoted someone else. What's the full hadith? If Bukhari narrated it, who told it to him and who supposedly heard it from Mohammed?

If you think you've made a point... nope. Sorry. Weak.

Oh and if I was to do the violence thing like I replied to you on my post: Then how about this: The Crusades. Let's not get started on the lame arguments please: I can make up as many as you can.

سبتمبر ١٣, ٢٠٠٨  
Blogger Amillennialist said...


Quick to the ad hominem attacks and false moral equivalences. How dishonest of you.

You denied that Islam requires death for apostates. I provided evidence (with specific citations) from texts 90-95% of Muslims consider authoritative, yet you're attacking my and Bukhari's credibility.

Either Mohammed said it, or not.

Here is Bukhari, whose collection is considered traditionally by Muslims "second to none":

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

And the first Crusade was called in response to Byzantine Christians' requests for aid in their defense against jihad.

Funny. I quote Allah and his false prophet, but you call that "lame arguments."

Allah will not be pleased.

سبتمبر ١٦, ٢٠٠٨  
Anonymous faisal said...

So you're saying that all Muslims agree on this?

I repeat: you'd think that something that serious would be mentioned in the HOLY BOOK.

It's a book that preaches violence according to you... Im sure a little line like: kill those that leave the religion wouldnt have made a bigger difference in the scheme of things, no?

Or did Allah and his false prophet forget to mention this?

نوفمبر ٠٧, ٢٠٠٨  
Blogger Amillennialist said...

أزال المؤلف هذا التعليق.

نوفمبر ٠٧, ٢٠٠٨  
Blogger Amillennialist said...

Yes, someone who confesses, "It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land" (Qur'an 8:67) and assassinates those critical of him would never require the killing of apostates, would he?

That's why death for apostasy is Islamic law among Sunni and Shia. What's that, 99.9% of the world's Muslim population?

Mohammed's words and actions show that he wants death for those who "change their religion."

Be honest.

نوفمبر ٠٧, ٢٠٠٨  
Blogger 麻辣鴨血Maggie said...


مايو ٢٦, ٢٠١٠  

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