الأربعاء، مارس 22، 2006

Problems on Hold: The New and Improved Ethnic Cleansing Strategy

The article in the title link is by Mr Youssef Sidhom, the editor of Watany. Mr Sidhom is someone I have a lot of respect for. He never shies away from speaking the truth as you can see from the concluding paragraph of the article. But first let's look at two of the cases listed in the article:

* Adel Ragheb Sourial was born in Daqahliya in 1929. Upon applying for a new ID, the Civil Register office contacted him to say that there was a discrepancy between the data in the papers he had submitted with the application and the data on the computer. The computer data cited Mr Sourial’s parents as Muslims while the papers listed them as Christians. Mr Sourial asks: “What can I do to prove the veracity of the data on my official papers? They are authentic, and were issued, approved, and employed by State apparatuses. Why does the Civil Register Authority reject them now instead of using them to correct the computer error?”

* Hikmah Mahfouz Youssef Ibrahim was born in Alexandria in 1971. Ms Ibrahim applied for a new ID, and was wary of the procedure, the problems of which she had heard of so much. The Civil Register did not disappoint her; it lived up to its reputation and issued her an ID which cited her and her parents’ religion as Muslim, contrary to their actual Christian religion. When she complained, she was told to submit their birth certificates. Since both parents are dead and Ms Ibrahim does not have their birth certificates, she submitted their death certificates—the last official papers that concern them—which cite them both as Christian. The Civil Register clerk rejected the death certificates as proof of the parents’ religion. Ms Ibrahim submitted the ID cards of her six siblings, in all of which the same parents are listed as Christian, but the clerk still rejected them. Ms Ibrahim cries: “Why should I have to pay for a computer entry error that is definitely not my fault?”


And now the concluding paragraph of the article which contained one more case:
* The same story was repeated with Manal Anwar Moawed Shehata, who was born in Cairo in 1969, but Ms Shehata’s problem was further complicated because one of the original documents she submitted was written in such poor handwriting that the word ‘Christian’ could easily pass as ‘Muslim’. As to why this particular document—to the exclusion of all the others cited above in the other similar cases—was taken into consideration by the Civil Register clerk, is inexplicable. And could this document lead to the Islamisation of the entire family, or deprive Ms Shehata of her much-needed computerised ID?

No Mr. Sidhom, it's not really inexplicable at all. It's a classic symptom of the disease that has gripped the psyche of our nation. Perhaps it is fulfillment of Mohammad Anwar elSadat's promise in the Summit of Islamic Nation in the 1950's: that Allah willing, we will either eradicate, convert or humiliate all the Copts of Egypt. Perhaps this is how the government ensures the number of Christians in Egypt is misrepresented.

I suppose burning of churches and attacking innocent civilians could attract a lot of attention. But forced conversions of minors, falsifying official ID papers...it's a modern, bloodless form of ethnic cleansing. I shudder to imagine what else is up their sleeve!
Link

51 Comments:

Blogger Egypeter said...

Couldn't agree more Neferteeti (hehe, have we ever disagreed?)!

I read that article in Watani and am also a HUGE fan of Youssef Sidhom. His "Problems on Hold" section in the Watani is excellent in uncovering what's TRULY going on in Egypt behind the veil.

Oh, wait...sorry, I forgot that there is no persecution of Copts in Egypt, my bad.

You are right on the money about how some muslims are now discriminating/persecuting/oppressing the Copts. 5000 person mob riots in downtown Alexandria and burning churches brings way too much attention so why not fly under the radar and continue the obvjective? What news source is going to report on something like this...none. But I'll tell ya what, this might be a more effective form of oppression than anything else.

"Allah willing, we will either eradicate, convert or humiliate all the Copts of Egypt."

-Anwar Sadat

Wow! Screw you Sadat, I piss on your grave!!! Words cannot describle how I feel that something like that came out of the mouth of our president... TRULY TRULY shocking!!! This shit head won the Nobel Peace Prize???????????????????? Was that quote in his Acception Speech?????

His mission lives on without him.

But, oh wait...Coptic persecution??? Doesn't happen. We're lying. Or at the very least we must be exagerrating Neferteeti.

:(

مارس 23, 2006  
Blogger Thutmose said...

well well
pharaoh's met at last , right ?? :)

my fellow Egyptian , i really thank you for what you wrought about me & my blog which of course yours to visit any time , & also its OK to wright in English or even Egyptian (Hieroglyphic) & i may understand them my friend , and i well respond to you in English although my Arabic is a lot better ..
about here & what we see here as an Egyptians or copts living in an some Arabic Islamic state like here , its bad its really bad , & i cant tell that Muslims are living a much better life they suffer as much as we do but i may claim on them that their suffering is by their hands , its all out of their ignorance & blindness & their Islamic attitude which allows them to do even much more than that .
but we did nothing to deserve what we got here , its our Egypt , we named after its name , its us ,,
they don't like it that way & wish to make it Islamic Arabic republic of Egypt , this republic i don't think it really exist , if it is to be a country so its Egypt , with its citizens who are Egyptians , that simple ,, other than that is just not real , like the Matrix ..

so glad to communicate with you my queen , hope to here from you soon & by the way you have a wonderful blog too .. i really like it so much ..

Thutmose ..

مارس 24, 2006  
Blogger Yarra Shapira said...

I loved your article.

مارس 24, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Thutmose
Please your majesty do respond in Arabic whenever you want :)....I love to read your extremely articulate and very well worded Arabic articles.

It's a pleasure and an honour to have you visit and your views are always welcomed.

You are right in pointing out that Muslim Egyptian also suffer. They do suffer the same unemployment, illiteracy and poverty...not to mention corrupt government and bribery and the rest. The difference is my dear King, we the Copts (i mean Christians) become the punching bag for all their frusterations. It's the classic ploy by failed governing regimes to distract the people from the real disasters around them. Unfortunately, most Egyptians, affected by long centuries of dictatorships, go along with it like lambs to the slaughter...blindfolded and ready to accept whatever is shoved down their throats by the government from one side and by Islamists from the other. And they just regutgitate it without thinking (Khaled, nemoelsamaka, Usama and el magda3's comments of Kareem's blog are prime examples of this) It's as if the good people of the land of the great Nile forgot what it is to have free thought and free will.

Having said that (and I apologise for carrying on) it gives me hope that there are young people like you and Kareem who haven't forgotten the greatness of the Egyptian pride.

C U around my friend!

مارس 24, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Yaara
Welcome and thanks for the kind comment :)

مارس 24, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Dear Egyptians:
Neferteeti living in Australia
Peter living in the States
Thutmose living in his castle

I should stop at some sentences posted on Neferteeti’s interesting blog :

Neferteeti’s “I shudder to imagine what else is up their sleeve!”

- You refer to the Egyptian Muslims by “their” , do you imply that the Muslims in your country are doing all the tricks – in their sleeves – in an attempt to persecute Christians?
- I would say – considering all the consequences you are detailing – they are doing you a favor by having you written as “Muslim”. It won’t in any way touch your faith or your teaches, yet, it will privilege you by facilitating your life in Egyptian formalities, based on Muslims in Egypt are the privileged! Just let’s look at the positives! What would the population number affect in consideration with elections for example ??? Elections are based on numbers of votes despite religion!! Would it affect the number of Christians going to the church?? Would it affect the volume of investments by Christians?? I might be having an acute perspective to this, enlighten me please, I can’t claim that I know everything. But I am certainly interested in Egyptian Muslims’ attitude in Egypt.

Just a simple question to answer Neferteeti; By all what you are mentioning about the country you were born in, do you hold (1) Islam or (2) Muslims or (3) Egyptian Muslims responsible for it? Or all of the previous ?? or only the government ?

مارس 26, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Peter “5000 person mob riots in downtown Alexandria and burning churches brings way too much attention so why not fly under the radar and continue the objective?”

I searched the incident of the play in Alexandria which I saw an article for on Neferteeti’s blog but failed to find it later, however, this is what I found for it on the net and it contradicted in so many details with the one posted on the blog. Also I couldn’t find the name of the Muslim person who was testifying against the act. There was no trace about him on the net. Here you go in concern with the incident itself ….

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Nov/20051102News012.asp

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/765/eg6.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051021-11021700-bc-egypt-protest.xml

There are more sites than these, but it is just a model. Bottom line, The protesters clashed with security forces who tried to prevent them from reaching the church. Meaning, Christians and churches in Egypt are having the due respect and protection, even, (like the Cartoons issue) they were organizing an Anti-Islam play in their church !!!

مارس 26, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Thutmose “its all out of their ignorance & blindness & their Islamic attitude which allows them to do even much more than that” “they don't like it that way & wish to make it Islamic Arabic republic of Egypt”

I have bad news for you Mr. 22 years old; it has been an Arab Republic since 1953, way before you were born and it is Islamic since the Muslims entered it in the year 639 “???!!” .. where were you by then ? In your castle? Or visiting Ramses II in his temple???

Whom do you refer to with “wish”, how could anybody wish a fact “???” .. or again you just refer to the Egyptian Muslims in their attempt of persecuting the Christians in Egypt ???

http://ismaili.net/mirrors/99_egypt/isl_egy.htm

http://www.travel-to-egypt.net/arab-republic-of-egypt.html

مارس 26, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Also your sentences about the Nobel Prize awarded for Peace; President Anwar al-Sadat had no trace in any of the following sites on this person and more!!

http://www.ibiblio.org/sullivan/bios/Sadat-bio.html
While Sadat's popularity rose in the West, it fell dramatically in Egypt because of internal opposition to the treaty, a worsening economic crisis, and Sadat's suppression of the resulting public dissent. He was assassinated by Muslim extremists while reviewing a military parade commemorating the Arab-Israeli war of October 1973.
http://www.britannica.com/nobel/micro/516_30.html

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0842905.html

Apparently, he did have problems with the Muslims in Egypt, but with Christians in Egypt “???!!!” ….

مارس 26, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

At a time I thought I was interfering in a subject that is not of my concern. My case is Islam!

Lady and Gentlemen, why are you doing this to your country ???? Is the problem with your country or with Islam???

Just for your information; Islam does not direct any Muslim to convert others to Islam! It is not any Muslim’s job to do that.

Moreover, It was never Profit Mohammad’s PBUH job to have people convert. His job was specified in Quran clearly as such; “Remind! You are just to remind. You can’t have control over them”

How can any Muslim whose best model in life is Prophet Mohammad PBUH, think he/she can take over a role that is greater than the Prophet’s “!!!!” .. logic and sense please …

مارس 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hi Muslim
"they are doing you a favor by having you written as “Muslim”...it will privilege you by facilitating your life in Egyptian formalities,"

You are sadly mistaken my friend. There is no privilege in being denied the basic right to recognise what religion you are.

I am actually against the idea of putting one's religion on their ID card. But since the law in Egypt necessitates it, then let it be done according to the law and without stripping anyone of their true identity.

Let me ask you Muslim: would you be happy to have "Christian" "Jewish" or "Buddhist" on your ID papers? Would you sell your pride so cheap just to gain worldly luxuries and privileges?

We the Christians don't shy away from affirmng our faith. We would never deny our faith, even if just on paper. The Lord said to us:
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

(Matthew 10:32-33)

So you see it isn't an option to consider this a positive or a privilege. Our church has mothered so many martyrs who didn't hesitate to sacrifice their lives to preserve the faith. And I don't mean martyred in wars in the name of God or while blowing themselves up in crowded markets. They were people who refused to deny their Christian faith and so they were tortured and killed.

I actually pity you Muslim for thinking that it is a simple matter to deny one's faith!! If you had known the love of Jesus and the strength of His church, you would never have considered this. What you speak of is called "toqiyya" in Islam. It means to lie in order to maintain peace or escape the tyranny of the enemy. We don't escape tyranny my dear friend...we haven't escaped it for 1400 years and we're not about to escape it now. We persevere because God's strengthh protects us.

مارس 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Muslim;
You allude to the fact Peter and I live abroad and Thutmose is young and perhaps out of touch from reality. I didn't even know Thutmose was Christian to begin with. His blog speaks of his love for Egypt and that's it.

What you don't know is that I was born and raised in Egypt. I still have my entire family living there and I visit often. You were too hasty in passing a judgement on us

مارس 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

RE: Alexandria riots:

"I couldn’t find the name of the Muslim person who was testifying against the act. There was no trace about him on the net

I don't understand....what Muslim person?

"they were organizing an Anti-Islam play in their church !!!"

Please Muslim!! you say we don't know because we don't live in Egypt...do you live in Egypt?

Besides; the play was not against Islam....it was against terrorism. Unless you think Islam=terrorism!

Have you seen the play? has any of the thousands seen it? They surrounded the church and stabbed a nun for God's sake!!! And you know what she did?
She refused to press charges against the person who attacked her. Because she believes in God's command:
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you(Matthew 5:44)

مارس 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

RE: Sadat
Did you really expectthat attrocious statement to be publicised?

مارس 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

RE: Islam forcing Muslims to convert others:

I respect your interpretation of your religion...you are obviously a moderate Muslim! However, I have two points to make:

1) There indeed are Quranic verses to encourage this violence:
"...fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful" (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers..." (Qur'an 9:14).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" (Qur’an 8:65).

O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him" (Qur'an 9:123).

2) there is Hadith to also encourage this:
"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah'" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

“Muhammad said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50).

“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror. The treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand’” (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).


So you see my friend, people who do persecute non Muslims have backing from God and the prophet

مارس 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

By all what you are mentioning about the country you were born in, do you hold (1) Islam or (2) Muslims or (3) Egyptian Muslims responsible for it? Or all of the previous ?? or only the government ?

Who carries out the attacks against Christians? Their Muslim counterparts.

Why? Because these people believe in the Islamic teachings that I mentioned in my previous comment to you. And the government lets it happen.

Listen Muslim; and I quote Ms Wafa Soltan here; you can believe in stones if you want as long as you don't hurl them at me!

Although I have many problems with the ideology of Islam, I respect the rights of all those who wish to believe in it....and I would have nothing against its folowers if they didn't constantly attack my people.

Don't think for one moment we don't love Egypt....it's our land and home. Our history and traditions. Just because we speak the truth it doesn't mean we are against the good of our country. Truth should be the first step to solve our problems and improve our conditions.

مارس 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Finally, and I apologise to Thutmose if I am speaking on his behalf, but in response to:

it has been an Arab Republic since 1953, way before you were born and it is Islamic since the Muslims entered it in the year 639 “???!!” .. where were you by then ? In your castle? Or visiting Ramses II in his temple???

I say to you Muslim, where were you when Egypt was the oldest civilisation on earth with great science, wealth and might?
Or rather where was Islam, Mohammad and the Quran then?

Where was Islam when Herodotous said of the Egyptians: "The Egyptians are religious to excess, far beyond any other race of men."

Where were you or Islam when Egypt provided refuge to Jesus Christ and His Holy family?

Or when Egypt received Christianity at the hands of St Mark the Apostle to become one of the earliest sees?

Or when the Coptic church produced the most learned theologians like St Clement and St Athanasious who protected the faith and preserved the teachings of Christianity without so much as raising a sword??

Or when the Coptic church stood up to heresy after another and withstood persecution after another for 2000 years???

The only blood we ever shed was the blood oft he martyrs who died to uphold Jesus Christ's message. So you see any comparison of:
-thousands of years of civilisation prior to Christianity, and 2000 years of a church who remained steadfast against time and men's tyranny alike...

with

-1400 years of a religion that spread with the power of the sword and 50 years of a label of "Arabian" thrust upon our country..

is an unfair comparison to say the least!

مارس 26, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Good morning my dear .. that is becoming interesting!

Don’t you think it is more interesting and thoughts-enriching to have different views and opinions supported with knowledge and\or background on some subjects, rather than having one view, one word and lots of clapping hands ???

You certainly have a special blog Neferteeti. Thank you for it and thanks for your hospitality so far. At least you are not deleting or preventing others’ opinions. This is what I call freedom of speech considering that no provoking or insults are being exchanged.

Now back to our civilized conversation :

1- If you think that computer errors do not happen every where in the world because they are simply human errors of input and interpreting this computer error as meant for “The ethnic cleansing strategy”, then I can’t but smile and wonder over the motive behind this interpretation specially that you are not ascertained that the one who did the mistake in the first place was a Muslim with bad intentions!!!

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

2- If you think that a computer error on your ID such as for example Male instead of Female makes you a “Male” in need of shouting around that you are a Female to prove it, or else you will be regarded as such, then I don’t agree. If I am under the same mistake of religion info error, I wouldn’t regard it as a plot (even by being a minority where I am), and I would certainly try to change it without publishing it as ‘cleansing strategy” on my blog. Moreover, if I see it published anywhere as such, before believing it, I would ask myself; What is the benefit behind it? What does it affect? What are my loses? What are my gains? To me Neferteeti; I can’t see any benefit behind it, and it doesn’t affect my faith an inch and my loses are simply equal to any internal discomfort if any of my other personal information is screwed up with as a result of a human error while entering data!! Why assuming the bad intentions. No simple reason!!!

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

3- I don’t know the word “toqiyya” ?? But I know what are you talking about so let me clarify. God=Allah is the merciful in its superlative meaning, he created human beings and he is the most knowledgeable about a persons’ frights and fears as he created those feelings in a human as well. Allah says with the meaning of that Allah doesn’t judge us with the outer acts like denying by mouth word being a Muslim at the time of great fear and fright of torture and killing for religious beliefs, however, Allah the merciful only punishes us for what is a heart-felt-act for hypocrisy, for not-believing, for insincerity, … etc. That is not called lying, this is called the Mercy of Allah at the time of great pressure than any human can bear. I experienced love to Allah the Merciful who did not put his rules in vain, he almighty considers all types of human beings he created when they are put under such a dramatic despair whether they are men, women, children, old persons, a mother threatened with her child .. etc. Allah gives them the way out assuring them that he almighty knows what they have in their hearts and that he, the most generous in its superlative meaning, and the fairness itself, will forgive them for spelling out by the mouth what is not felt in their hearts at those horrible times. And if you think of it, you will just have the utmost love for your creator who no one on earth could compete with his knowledge of human beings, mercy and forgiveness. I Love Allah.

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

4- Is Thutmose Christian ? I didn’t know that and I didn’t mention it!! But surely he is Egyptian, as he regarded himself as a Pharaoh. What hasty judgment did I pass on you? “us” is meant for the Egyptians I guess! Anyone reads this blog can pass a lottttttttt of hasty judgments on Egyptians .. but not me!! Islam is my case, and I love Islam.

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

5- Alexandria Riots; I learnt about the incident from your blog and searched the details as per the links I gave in here. Please at least refer to this one (http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Nov/20051102News012.asp). It is neutral and not on neither sides and it mentions equal losses to a Muslim owned Café, plus, no mention of the forgiving Nun who was attacked by the Muslims! It is not Muslims morals and the story was imposed to mislead you Neferteeti, as you said, neither of us was there, so let’s only take the published by neutral site, they certainly are not persecuting Christian Copts in union with Muslim Copts!!! The whole story on this link (http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/765/eg6.htm) by those people who were there, beside the pyramids!! Let’s take their story then! or find me neutral links of pure news with what you have detailed. By the way, the last have the same title you chose with Sara “One step forward, two steps back”.

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

6- A simple question; Why should a minority in a country attempt to upset the violent majority ??? Strange??? Didn’t they know the simple scientific fact of every action has a reaction??? Why would the cartoonists in Denmark attempt to upset 1.5 billion Muslim around the world? Can’t you see any resemblance in attitude??

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

7- A terrorist is a person who causes terror whether he/she is the good, the bad or the ugly! Terror might be caused by a cop to a robber, same case with Muslims causing terror to an anti-social element in the society. But for innocent people, a Muslim is a source of peace! In this sense; Islam = Terrorism and not in any other sense. Why Islam does frighten non-Muslims to that extent? Meanwhile, why does it spread so rapidly? Doesn’t make anybody wonder?

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

8- In concern with Sadat; I expect everything to be published on the net if publicly and officially declared. But if it was behind closed doors when told, then I doubt its credibility but do not deny it the credit as well. Just treat it as standing in the middle of nowhere and of no value statement!

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

9- Neferteeti; We individual Muslims do not just interpret our religion, we study our religion and take after our scientists of religion who based their clarification on solid Quran verses, Prophet sayings and trusted stories from the Prophet’s time. When there is a case that requires interpretation, we again have our scientists’ different interpretation that we choose among and all are correct from a certain perspective as a mercy for humans. In the case of converting; there is no several interpretations by our scientists, all agreed on the fact of that converting others is not the job of anybody including the Prophet PBUH. We introduce our religion and correct understandings in this concern and that is the duty of every and each Muslim, then we take our reward from Allah for that, what else would we want. Allah grants Islam to that who is willing not that whom we like to convert. Islam honors its followers, not vice versa. We need Islam, not vice versa.

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

10- I have to mention here one of our Prophet’s sayings when he told his friends by the meaning of “Support your brother (brotherhood in humanity meant here) oppressing or oppressed” they asked him PBUH “How O’ Prophet of Allah? We understand how to support our brother when oppressed! But how can we support our brother when he is the oppressor?” he answered PBUH “by preventing him from oppressing others”. This kind of “preventing oppressing acts by a Muslim to other” was considered by our Prophet as a support by a Muslim to a Muslim to resist his own weaknesses in favor of brotherly love and support for all to go to heaven. How can Islam be accused of whatever oppressing actions. I love the great Prophet of Islam PBUH. A religion full of love and fulfills me and all Muslims with love. Muslims as should be!

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

11- Allow me to ask you Neferteeti, where was Jesus when Moses has his ten commandments PBU them both? where was the Pharaohs when Abraham PBUH rested the al-Masjid al-Haram in Mecca? Where Abraham was when Noah built his arch PBU them both? And where was Noah when Adam descended from Heavens PBU them both? Logically Neferteeti, it is the wisdom of Allah's power of the newer supersedes the older in an attempt of bettering life.

مارس 27, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Last but not least VERSES OF QURAN specifically mentioned by Neferteeti and ISLAM WAS SPREAD BY THE POWER OF THE SWORD subjects. These two very interesting subjects need more time than is left now for me.

Parting is such a sweet sorrow
So see you with more answers tomorrow
(with an apology to Shakespeare for re-editing his poem and an apology for anyone who thinks that I have over done my answers, but couldn't make it shorter and already did cut off a lot of detailed explanation)

مارس 27, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Muslim said:

Why should a minority in a country attempt to upset the violent majority ??? Strange??? Didn’t they know the simple scientific fact of every action has a reaction??? Why would the cartoonists in Denmark attempt to upset 1.5 billion Muslim around the world? Can’t you see any resemblance in attitude??

The only resemblance I see about the "Cartoon Wars" and the "Alexandria riots" is the REACTION OF MUSLIMS! That's the only difference I see.

And one more point Muslim. You said:

Why Islam does frighten non-Muslims to that extent? Meanwhile, why does it spread so rapidly? Doesn’t make anybody wonder?

PLEASE READ THIS LINK OF THE SPREAD OF ISLAM.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm

مارس 28, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Muslim said:

It is neutral and not on neither sides and it mentions equal losses to a Muslim owned Café, plus, no mention of the forgiving Nun who was attacked by the Muslims! It is not Muslims morals and the story was imposed to mislead you Neferteeti

C'mon guy!! That's BULL-SH**!!!!!

Go read Karim's blog! Watch the video of the riot online. Read the commentaries!

You said "equal losses" for both sides? HUH? You're covering your eyes from the truth because that is a flat out LIE.

مارس 28, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Why can't Egyptians aknowledge that their are huge sectarian issues in Egypt.

No one will admit it except for the Copts. I really really don't get it.

Let's try and look at this objectively from a 3rd person's view.

Two groups in Egypt. Copts and Muslims.

You ask the persecuted if they are oppressed by the other and they say, "yes."

You ask the persecutee if they are oppressing the other and they say, "no."

Hmmm. Does that not make you wonder?

You mention how ALL Egyptians have a lousy deal in Egypt. No doubt. Life in Egypt sucks for all but it sucks a lot more if you are a Christian...PERIOD.

Anyone who denies that is blind as a bat or just a fool.

Isn't Religion for God and the country for all??

مارس 28, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Hello Egy Peter ...

I have just read your comments and I can’t really see why are you that upset?

First, thanks for reminding me with the Muslim’s name that I was looking for on the net. “Karim” it is !!! Would you give me the link please. I couldn’t find a trace of the guy among the formal sources to “Alexandria Church Play”. I thought I found him on Neferteeti’s blog but apparently not. She didn’t even know what I was talking about. Apologies your majesty!

Secondly, in concern with the Nun Story; I am sorry Peter but this is not “whatever you called it” (excuse my inability and unwillingness to use bad language), on more reading on one of the sites which is “Al-Ahram Weekly Online”, not only no trace of the Nun’s subject, but also you can easily interpret that Saint George Church is a church for monks not nuns !!!

مارس 28, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Thirdly, I thank you for stressing on finding resemblance in the REACTION. Considering that you regard “Other than Muslims” are rational and peaceful and want to live in a perfect world supported by Neferteeti’s statement “Listen Muslim; and I quote Ms Wafa Soltan here; you can believe in stones if you want as long as you don't hurl them at me! “

My questions to you are :
1-Why do you hurl stones on Muslims and deny them a Reaction? And by the way, I am totally against violent actions even if I can understand the pressure someone is put under when REACTING violently, specially in concern with beliefs.
2- Considering that you are the educated, civilized, peaceful and more, assembly in your country; Why don’t you initiate a dialogue with the others in your country instead of having a provoking play which even if “was not” from your point of view, it was for those whom it resembles. Your perception and sensibility to others – who might be enjoyed by Muslims in your Country - might help you have a better community in your beloved country.

مارس 28, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Peter, please consider me a third person’s view. Each time a subject is mentioned I try and search the published about it on the net in several sites and most of the times I find differences and this is where I state my judgment, not considering that any of you do post lies but I might consider the bad intentions of those who passed on the details for you to mislead you.

Let alone all the misleading ideas posted everywhere about Islam itself.

Egypt is not my concern in fact! But what you are mentioning is a mix between Egypt as a country and Christians and Muslims inside this country, who are all Copts by the way. Linguistically at least!!!

Even I am so neutral when I tell you (as a third party here), that according to the population statistics in Egypt (all off the net), Christians in Egypt are only 10% while Muslims in this country are 90% and if we consider computer errors, we can generously add another 10% to the Christian Copts to have the following ratio :

Christian Copts : Muslim Copts
20% : 80%
2 : 8
1 : 4

Meaning, for each Christian Copt in your country who says “yes” for being persecuted, there are four Muslim Copts who says “No” !!!

Now that makes me wonder. Simple math !!

Your prejudgment on the case Peter is not Fair in every sense. You are not even letting me, or any one else, decide about the credibility of either group. You classified the two groups as persecuted and persecutor (persecutee; which is not of the language) and that ends the case from your own point of view.

Stay safe Peter.

مارس 28, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

For Growth rates of Christianity and Islam, please check the following link away from any prejeduce

http://www.religioustolerance.org/growth_isl_chr.htm

That is no article. Just Statistics and Summary.

Let alone alamanac 1986

مارس 28, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

WAS ISLAM SPREAD BY THE SWORD?

Of course Islam teaches and Muslims’ trusted books states to the contrary, but I would say that it won’t be good enough for anyone who wants to believe to the contrary.

Let’s skip the part of Islam strength at the time of the Prophet PBUH and later with few hundred years till the year 1985 when the population of the Muslims worldwide was ~700 million

Now let’s take the period from 1985 to date (2006) when there is no sword, no strength of Muslims or Islamic countries where the number of Muslims today is 1.5 Billion !!!

My question is; where did this growth came from? the wide spreading in Europe and the United States as well as in other areas of the world? By the Sword?

مارس 28, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

OK, now let’s go back a little and raise the following questions :

- The Arabs ruled Arabia for 1400 years with little taking over by the British and the French during this period. Don’t you think that if Islam was spread by the sword that no way that you could have found 14 million Coptic Christian Arabs living today?
- The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. 80% of the Indians today are non-Muslims. Don’t you think that all India would have been Muslims today if Islam was spread by the sword?
- Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world and the majority of Malaysians are Muslims. Which Muslim army went to either countries?
- Same goes for East Coast of Africa!

مارس 28, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Wide spread of Islam and number of converts in the USA and Europe after 9/11 and after the Danes Cartoons were published.

“With the Sword” I hear????

When surprisingly, those two incidents one of them was imposed on Muslims without a proof any better than the proof given to the world of the presence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and the other incident was meant to show the face of Islam and the Great Prophet of Islam PBUH to the world.

Don’t you still wonder ??? The Sword ???

مارس 28, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Hi Muslim.

Thanks for responding to me. I appreciate your calm and intelligent response :)

Here's the link to Karim's blog. He may have some very hasrsh views on Islam but he is a very very courageous person.

http://karam903.blogspot.com/

I'll also leave you a link to the FreeCopts website. They do an excellent job of reporting on the persecution of Copts that occurs in Egypt. Check out the FreeCopts website and you will see what Neferteeti and I are talking about. I make a point to check it out every day.

http://freecopts.blogspot.com/

You also said in regards to the Alexandrian Riots:

"on more reading on one of the sites which is “Al-Ahram Weekly Online”, not only no trace of the Nun’s subject, but also you can easily interpret that Saint George Church is a church for monks not nuns !!!

I too check "Al-Ahram weekly online" on a regular basis.

Of course Al-Ahram did NOT report on the nun. Do you think that STATE-OWNED Al-Ahram would report something like that?? NO WAY. They never report on ANY of the problems that Copts are having. I think this is a big source of the misinformation that goes around Egypt. Living in America, I get objective, non state-owned, unbiased information...not the crap that Al-Ahram feeds me. It's funny, I get more accurate information about Egypt than Egyptians themselves! And obviously if news outlets in Egypt don't report on something doesn't mean that it didn't happen, right?

And also, St. George's Church is a church and not a monastary. A monastary only has monks. A convent only has nuns. And a church has parishoners.

In regards to the play:

Do you know that the play was performed ONLY ONCE. And it was performed OVER TWO YEARS before the crazy rioters took to the streets?

Are you also aware that the Ikhwan were the ones responsible for copying and distributing the DVD to inflame people's emotions?

And NO WAY can you tell me that the rioters damaged Coptic and muslim properties. That is categorically FALSE. My cousin George gave me a full account of what happened. I saw a video of the riot on the web. So, with all due respect friend, please don't say that the rioters weren't only targetting the Copts...simply not ture.

You said:

"Meaning, for each Christian Copt in your country who says “yes” for being persecuted, there are four Muslim Copts who says “No” !!!"

That's my point friend. It doesn't matter if Copts are 1%, 10% or 20%. We're talking about the bigger picture here. Why does the exact number matter so damn much?? And so 1 person in Egypt says their is Coptic persecution and 4 Muslims say there is no Coptic persecution. If you think about that objectively you will the absurdity in it. I am sure if you asked the KKK if they persecuted the blacks prior to the Civil Rights movement you'd get the same answer. I'm sure if you asked Adolf Hitler if he persecuted the Jews he'd say no too.

Go through history and I'm sure you'll get blatant denial of persecution by the oppressors.

You said:

"Now let’s take the period from 1985 to date (2006) when there is no sword, no strength of Muslims or Islamic countries where the number of Muslims today is 1.5 Billion !!!"

I'm not really sure about all your figures there.

And maybe the incredible birth rates in all muslim countries probably has a lot to do with it. Since all muslim countries are third world countries they have amazing birth rates. Just check out Sandmonkey's blog about that.

http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/03/27/the-divide/

Check out Yahoo too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060319/wl_mideast_afp/egyptpopulation

Anyway, hope that answers some of your comments. Take care of yourself too!

Peace

مارس 28, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hey Pete and Muslim
I've just caught on with all the comments and I'd like to add the following:

1) I believe reducing this issue to numbers is absurd.
Muslim: it doesn't matter whether there's 4:1, or even 400:1 Muslims in Egypt. I find your views about "why should the minority upset the majority" and "if the majority is saying so it must be true" offensive my friend.

Are you implying that in Israel where 80% of the population are Jewish and only 19.9% are Arabs by ethnicity...and 76.5% Jewish by religion (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html)

Are you saying that this means if the Israeli prime minister says there's no problems facing non Jews in Israel, that we should believe him merely because he represents the majority?

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

2) The point of this post:

Muslim; I don't know where you're from, but where I come from: Egypt, such errors are not just a mistake on paper...they can have disastrous consequences.

For example; if a man's ID card says he is Muslim, and he dies leaving behind minor children, they can be taken away from their mother because of course the children of a Muslim parent have to be raised as Muslims (http://neferteeti.blogspot.com/2006/02/blatant-discrimination.html) and although the court ruled in favor of common sense this time, who's to say more cases won't go in the opposite direction in the future? why subject families to this heartache?

Also, if a person dies while "officially" a Muslim, his Christian family can't have claim to his/her inheritance.

Also, How do you guarantee that a person carrying official papers saying they are Muslims, won't be accused of apostacy if seen attending church and living the life of a Christian?

Finally, I say it to again: it is a pride and an honor to tell the world we are the children of Jesus Christ
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Galatians 6:14

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

3) the principal of Taqyia or Toqiya:
I find it curious that God should expect us to lie:
"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28
Is lying not a sin? and don't sinners go to hell? so why encourage His people to sin?

Besides; what are the rules? How do you determine that the situation is dangerous? what one person could percieve as danger may not be dabgerous at all!! it's an ambiguous way for God to expect his people to act. Not to mention decieving.
How do I know that my Muslim neighbor is genuinely kind to me or is he just lying in wait because he thinks I'm dangerous? How do I know that my Muslim colleagues at work are sincere or are they just hiding their true feelings?

how do you justify the following:
"Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”

why would Allah or his prophet permit someone to lie to get money??

Qur’an 13:27 “Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.’”
why??????

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.”

is this honorable?

in short, I don't see this as an honorable way to live or act. I wouldn't accept it from a mere human, let alone as a teaching from a God.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Why Islam does frighten non-Muslims to that extent?

Islam doesn't frighten people as much as it repells many. I can't speak for all of humanity but I'll tell you what I see and believe. I don't intend to offend, i'm just saying it how I see it:

I see a religion that concentrates too much on materialistic things and not nearly enough on spirituality. There a focus on how to perform everything fathomable from washing yourself to intimate relations between couples.

There's way too much talk of sex in the Quran and Hadith (some of it revolting and embarrassing)...yet Islam claims to be a religion of purity.

There's too much emphasis on war and killing.

There's absurd teachings on women's rights, or ;ack thereof:
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”

Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”

Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

I see a prophet who murdered, betrayed, broke treaties, erased tribes of people, ordered pillage of possessions, married whomever he wanted even a six year old!!!

I see followers of that religion attacking innocent people and screaming Allahu Akbar

I see them slitting throats on the net while sheathed in Quranic verses

I see them burning churches

I see them beheading schoolgirls just because they are Christians

I see 9/11, Madrid, 7/7 and Bali

I see refugees from East Timor who spent months in the mountains like frightened animals because the Muslim Indonesian troops chased them and killed their kin.

I see Abdul Rahman sentenced to death for converting to Christianity (not by a court, by his peers of Muslim Afghanis)

You still wondering why people are repelled by Islam?

مارس 31, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Oh my God (God=Allah Alone with no partner thereto)!

I get driven by work for one week – maybe less – to come back and find all that “????” .. Muslim whispering a little prayer “Glorious Allah .. Grant me the privilege of bringing up my little girl in Australia to have all the time I need .. but keep me on the righteous conception of matters”

Neferteeti, I need a lot of time to go through all what you have detailed as it is full of misconceptions and misleading statements, when I trust you are the one who is mislead and not a misleader in yourself!

Now I am sure that it is “Islam” in itself that is repelled by you and not Muslim Copts and their acts in Egypt which at a time I thought might be true!!!

أبريل 05, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

One of several points that made me pause, bitterly smile and wonder:

Neferteeti “Finally, I say it to again: it is a pride and an honor to tell the world we are the children of Jesus Christ”

- Mind me Neferteeti, aren’t you personally the daughter of the Pharaohs?
- As far as I know (and it is true) Jesus PBUH is not a descendant of Pharaohs!!! Jesus is a descendant of Abraham PBUT.
- Abraham was the son of Terah and the father of Isaac, who was born to Sarah from which tree; Moses and Jesus PBUT were born, and, and he is also the father of Ishmael, who was born to Hagar from which tree Muhammad PBUH was born.
- Abraham is a great Hebrew patriarch and is considered the common spiritual father of the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Children of Jesus “???” .. The Pharaohs were the oppressors of the Hebrews in Egypt (maybe Pharaohs were Muslims- the source of oppression in this world!!!!!), enslaving them, raping their women and killing their children !!! Jesus is a descendant of these Hebrews a while after were rescued out of Egypt with the miraculous sea split of Moses PBUT, born in Bethlehem located about 10 Kilometers (6 miles) southwest of Jerusalem/Palestine.

And if some are the children of Jesus, are they the grandsons/grand daughters of God?? Is Virgin Mary “the mother of Jesus”, their grandmother? Is she the wife of God ?!!!!

Should I consider the statement as a “lie”? Dishonest and deceivable? Or what should I say or think ???

Jesus PBUH to Islam is the Prophet of Allah sent miraculously to All Human beings at his time and those who believe in him are his followers (now or then) and worshipers of Allah practicing Christianity.

More to come ….

أبريل 05, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

I can’t believe or tolerate the misconceptions and the false translation of verses plus other imposed wording on Prophet’s sayings.. Oh my God .. too much to endure ..

That includes but not limited to “Women Value and Position in Islam” … but I will just answer with one simple argument that is simple to find in Quran;

Virgin Mary in Islam
In the Quran, no other woman is given more attention than the Virgin Mary. In fact, the nineteenth chapter of the Quran is named after her. Of the Quran's 114 chapters, she is among the eight people who have a chapter named after them. Mary is the only woman specifically named in the Quran. In Islam, she is generally referred to as Maryam, Umm Isa (Mary, the mother of Jesus). For Muslims, the Virgin Mary is viewed as both an example and a sign for all people despite their gender.
I am sorry Neferteeti, I am not sure where most of your translations came from and how do you pick up a puzzle part of the whole picture and ignore all the other pieces thereto. I have a lot of trusted translations guided by Muslim Scientists, should you wish to have a sincere look.

http://www.iad.org/books/S-women.html

Women honoring and important role in Islam is a bigger subject than be taken in details here but the righteous information is always there for the seeker.

More to come ….

أبريل 05, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Neferteeti the Egyptian Queen, I was thinking about you, and all what you said, all day through, even in my sleep : ))) all what I was thinking of is how to let your pharaoh-eyes see the whole picture, not just a part of the puzzle, put in the wrong direction !!! Among this and that .. I felt that I am grateful to you because you make me live and sleep with the most lovable issue to my heart; Islam, and my heart keeps repeating “I love you God” and in his graceful Proper Noun I say “I love you Allah” .. and with his superlative characteristics I say “I love you the All Merciful” .. “I love you the Forgiver” .. “I love you the Fairness” and I feel grateful to Allah that he has those characters in him to grant patience and hope to his worshipers.. and my love overflow to the Prophet PBUH … “I love you O’Prophet Muhammad PBUH”

.. then I go back and remember that I owe these continuous powerful emotions to you Queen .. by all the misconceptions and misleading translations and your presentation on Islam that is enough to kill from far .. and I remember Allah’s words in Quran by the meaning of “you might hate something and it is good for you” and I say to myself “Correct” .. I owe Neferteeti a “Thank you” .. for not letting life absorb me completely leaving only the space for the minimal required from a Muslim including but limited to; the five Prayers.

I always try to squeeze the time to find few moments to spend in here .. talking about what I love most.

Last but not least, Thank you.

أبريل 06, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Talking about “the principal of Taqyia or Toqiya” .. and mentioning the words does not mean that I admit any of the two words or that it is a principle .. I don’t know even which language are you using for any of the two words .. but again … let’s talk about the issue that we both know we are talking about …

In brief: Lying is a sin in all religions, not only the three monotheist religions, however, Allah the All Merciful, the Forgiver have the ability (as no one can take Allah for granted) to forgive those who under severe oppression and fear of torture and inhuman deaths, have admitted by the tongue what they don’t have in their hearts, denying themselves from Islam. Allah the Merciful – if so he wishes – forgives this sin, this weakness he knows under what circumstance it was committed. Can you find a more generous God than Allah who have the ability to forgive if asked for forgiveness and if so he wills?

Want examples of severe oppression:

Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq; According to an Army report obtained by The Washington Post, 208 abuse cases were reported to have occurred between the U.S. invasion of Iraq in March 2003 and May 2004, when the Abu Ghraib abuses made international news. The reported abuse cases peaked in April 2004, when there were 25 cases, including four deaths. (By Josh White, Washington Post Staff Writer, Thursday, March 17, 2005; Page A17)

Another ?

Guantánamo Bay - the human rights scandal- -the unlawful detention of “enemy combatants” at the US Naval Base !! (Read at Amnesty International, an organization to protect human rights worldwide)

Another?

Bosnia …

Another?

Palestinians in Israeli Prisons ….

And more …

And by the way … all published and reachable information .. through strong and through weak media … through neutral and prejudice media ..

Never at anytime expect me to answer you by “ You surely don’t expect it to be published !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! “

More to come …

أبريل 07, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

And …

This courageous statement of yours “There's way too much talk of sex in the Quran and Hadith (some of it revolting and embarrassing)...yet Islam claims to be a religion of purity.”

What can I say .. were do you get this courage ???

Neferteeti .. I have bad news for you .. there isn’t in Quran or Prophet Sayings any wide open talk of sex that in any way could be described as offending, repulsive or embarrassing. Not because it is a forbidden issue to talk about in Islam, but because Islam differs in its way of tackling the different issues of life, using the highest ethics in doing so. Sex is of purity when practiced between a lawful husband and a lawful wife. I don’t believe this meaning of purity differs in Christianity or Judaism . It is just the way you tackle the subject.

And don’t speak as if you have read the Quran or the Prophet sayings, because any Muslim common knowledge, can easily get the fact that this is not the case with you.

I am sure you wouldn’t have missed the chance to give example(s) to your false statement, only if you had any !!!

Stop using the words “I see” .. use “I think” .. “I heard” .. “I want the reader to believe” .. but not “I see” ….

More to come …

أبريل 07, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Muslim
Apologies for taking so long to respond. It's been indeed a hectic week both at home and at work. Unfortunately i don't have much time to address all your comments, as I've actualy had to bring work home for the first time ever!!!

However, I can tell you this, my friend I respect your right to your opinions and I never have nor will ask you to change them. If we are to continue having our discussions I ask you too remmebr this:

I do not take kindly to being told what to do, say or believe.

I do not appreciate your statement:
Stop using the words “I see” .. use “I think” .. “I heard” .. “I want the reader to believe” .. but not “I see” ….

For it is my right to both have my opinion, and express it in the manner which accurately reflects me and my values.

It is my hope that we can continue talking honestly and openly, and never my intention to offend or insult.

Peace and well wishes to you and your loved ones.

أبريل 08, 2006  

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