الثلاثاء، مارس 07، 2006

RE: Muslim's comment on "Coptic Flag"...The Holy Trinity

Just to provide a background to those unfamiliar with the origin of this discussion, I decided to post this in a separate post.

While visiting another blog I observed a discussion between 3 Muslim readers and a Christian reader regarding Christian beliefs. One Muslim reader posed a question on the concept of the Holy Trinity and whether or not it is mentioned in the Bible. I couldn't resist answering the question...here's what I said:

Hi Guys
I've been sort of following the discussion you are having with Mario. I hope you won't mind me adding a couple of points to the discussion. These are my own explanations as I understand Christianity and as is supported by Biblical reference:
(2- if this word ( trinity)wasnt presented in the Bible, then where did it come from?
did someone invent or add it in Christianity? )
It may not have been spelled out in the Bible, but the concept is there.
If you read the Gospel of St John, chapter 1 verse 1 and 2:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.

The word of God is Jesus Christ. This is verified again in verse 14: 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
That explains the Son.
As for the Holy Spirit: Matthew 3:16-17
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
and in Acts 2:17-18
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy
___________________________________
So in short, even if the word trinity itself is not in the Bible, the concept is clearly in there. The fact we believe in Holy Trinity doesn't mean we believe in 3 Gods.
The sun is a body that emmits warmth and light. Yet it is just one sun.
You have a mind and a spoken word. But you are just one person.
God has a Spirit and He sent His word (Jesus) to the world. He is one God.
It is a difficult concept to understand. I won't however claim that if you don't understand it then you must be stupid (like Truth claimed anyone who didn't understand the Quranic miracle must be!!). I'll just say that if you look at something with bias, you may not see the truth in it.
God Bless All

Then I remembered something else so I posted:

Hey guys
Sorry just thought of something else re:Trinity.
In Matthew 28:19
19Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Notice here He says in the "name" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit... not the "names"... Which means the three are one.
Also in John's Gospel, St John indicates the purpose of his writing this Gospel is to indeed show that Christ IS the Son of God. Chapter 20:31
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Then I was rewarded by a torrent of abuse by the person called Truth, for my efforts in answering the question he posed. Silly me, I thought he was asking a question because he genuinely wanted to kn ow the answer!

Then Muslim posted the comment on my post The Coptic Flag which I'd like to respond to here. Before I do, I thank Muslim for his comment which is a far cry form the childich retort i recieved from Truth.

If Islam and Judaism state clearly the Oneness of Allah ..
How can Christianity which is the second volume of the same book says otherwise.


Christianity doesn't say otherwise. We have something called the "Creed" which is our cofession and affirmation of our faith in Christianity. The opening statement in our creed is: (see: http://www.scar.utoronto.ca/~coptic/creed.shtml)
Truly we believe in One God

Is any of us; He and his father ONE??!!
No we aren't one with our fathers or mothers. But the concept of God the Father and God the Son in the Holy Trinity is not the same as how men father children on earth. God didn't actually father a child...We say Jesus is the Son of God to point out the fact that He was sent from God and He is God.

Allah almighty sent Muhammad PBUH as the final Prophet to complete the religion that has been sent in volumes Judaism, Christianity then Islam. That religion needed to be completed and prove is that they all allow and forbids the same things with more aspects to life way of living in Islam.

Now that's interesting. What was it that Islam completed? Christianity and Judaism were already quite clear in what they allowed and disallowed. In fact Christianity completed Judaism.

The Old Testament is there to explain what the original sin was, and why we needed salvation. It also predicts the coming of the Massaiah who will deliver that salvation and reconcile Heaven and earth. The New Testament shows the fullfillment of those prophecies and tells of the early Church.

Forgive me, but I fail to see how Islam has anything to do with this. How did Islam address the salvation of humankind from the original sin? How does Islam address the Saviour (The Massaiah) that Jews are still waiting for?

Not all Christians are disbelievers or imitate disbelievers

If by "disbelievers" you mean those who believe in the Holy Trinity, I regret to tell you we are all disbelievers to you then. There isn't a Christian on earth who doesn't believe in the Divinity of Christ...it isn't possible!

For disbelievers and atheists, Allah also in Quran has drawn to us the basic lines in our relationship with them and how to treat them.

Would you care to list those for us please Muslim?

...if Judaism and Islam order us to glorify the Lords “Allah”’s name and not to take him in vain which include but not limited to “valueless, pointless, worthless … etc. acts”, then certainly Christianity does not allow this. Allah’s messengers have been praised and valued by Allah in all religions. Allah wouldn’t accept their names to be taken in vain!!

I believe you said this in the context of the cartoon issue. You're right, we follow that same command in Christianity. But what did Christianity have to do with the cartoons anyway?

I don't know where you 're from Muslim, but it always seems that the Islamic world views the West as "Christian", and so everything that happens in the West must be attributed to Christianity. Not True!

Christianity itself has suffered a great deal of mockery and insults at the hands of "Westerners" too. Christianity may be the religion of the majority here, but it doesn't dictate what is written in the papers or shown at galleries or taught at schools. The West is SECULAR.

Finally, I do acknowledge again that the concept of the Holy Trinity looks difficult and illogical on the surface. However, it is what we (Christians) believe in and will always believe in. If it makes us unbelievers in the eyes of Muslims, so be it.
Link

20 Comments:

Anonymous Muslim said...

Neferteeti,

You certainly are different!

I am so encouraged with your agreement to keep the communication.

Though time is not helping me for I will be traveling the coming days and I am now preparing for that, I still took the time to read your comments and appreciate posting it separately and in points. Very organized and civilized attitude from your side Neferteeti.

Just two notes here before I go and be back few days later; No one should regard the West as Christian where in my posts on Enough, I was opposing the idea of Muslims being Arabs “???!!!” .. religion has no specific land. Do you know that only 15% only of the Muslims are Arabs and 85% are all over the world? If you review my posts on Enough you will find that I was pleading for separation between nationality, location and religion. Anyways, mentioning that Christianity would never allow taking the prophets’ name in vain was a result of series of posts by Christians like yourself and Mario (Orthodox) and other Christians on the same post whom out of fairness would admit that their religion wouldn’t allow them to take the name of God or Jesus in vain. It supports the non-acceptance by Muslims to the Danes act of publishing the Cartoons. That is easy to verify by going back and review Enough blog posts.

The other point is; The description of blog is nice and fair if exposure to it is limited to close friends or relatives of Mikkel, like a private party. But since a blog, like any other site, is publicly posted on the internet for anybody to see, read and get affected with or not, and since the subject posted concerns Muslims with an “against” speech, and since the commenting parties get in and agree to all what Mikkel said and agree to each other, I think I and everybody have the right to correct the image and respect the minds of those who are even just passing by. A blog is like shouting in a public square and gathering people, then telling them when answering you, I don’t like what you are saying and I won’t allow anyone to speak (in public) except with my consent and he has to first tell me what he/she has in my ears, then I take the decision to scream it out in the public square or not. What is this ??? it doesn’t take a state leader my dear to do this .. it takes a tyrant!!! However, my deleted post (several times) was back to the subject as you saw, but ……

One question please; those who initiate blogs for themselves, do they mean to speak in general issues with their opinions and accept only those who stereotype them? Or do they appreciate the other opinion? Is their motive to have a blog with comments of one opinion only to keep on cheering and clapping hands, or are they looking for effective, civilized, based on facts conversation and are ready to admit they were wrong if they were proven wrong?

Anyways .. as usual .. I made it very long. Sorry .. can’t control it so far .. got to go .. but .. I have to tell you Ms. Neferteeti, so far, you have allowed posts, you gave them the due attention and answers and you corrected yourself when you was wrong (like with alif). Looks like we got some things in common for a start and I respect that very much.

Till soon, cheers to the 2 years old sweetie from Muslim.

مارس 07, 2006  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

Interesting...

CHeck this out:

http://stupidgoyim.blogspot.com

مارس 08, 2006  
Anonymous Sara said...

i'll not comment on that post...
but i commented on the coptic flag....please read it...in response for what neferteeti said :
quote
Re: separate Coptic state:
I don't know where you get this idea. Kindly provide a reference to any Copt who stated this claim.
quote

مارس 08, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Thanx for your kindness Muslim. Don't worry about the long comment, it's good to hear your thoughts. For now, I pray you have a safe trip and I lok forward to more discussions with you.

God Bless you.

مارس 08, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Anonymous
I did check it out. Actually it wasn't interesting as much as it was old news.

For so many years all Arab governments have succeeded in convincing their people that everything bad is the Israelis/Americans fault.

The drug problem in Egypt is Israel's fault.
Unemployment and poor economy is Israel's and America's fault.
A gang of Muslims burn a church in Upper Egypt is Israel's fault.
If your cow dies it's Israel's fault.
I can't wait for the moment they declare that bird flu is Israel's fault.

It's laughable really, but it seems to work. Nobody payes attention to the corrupt government because they're too busy scowling at Israel/America/Europe.

مارس 08, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Hey Bent - faneek?? Intee wahashtini :)

مارس 10, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hi Pete
Am still around :) (ma tshofshi we7esh, lol)
I've been talking to Sara about that "independant Coptic State" that we're supposedly planning!! Have a look at "Coptic Flag" comments.
Otherwise, working hard and chasing my daughter around the house :)

مارس 10, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Glad to hear you're well Bent!

Oh you didn't get that memo that we've been planning a separate Coptic state within OUR Egypt? It must've fallen off your desk.

Well, anyway, I'm gonna be president...do you wanna be my VP?

Lies and rumors are all that Muslims know about Copts...it's so sad. And it really pisses me off!

Anyway, take care and give that little bugger of yours a big fat kiss from uncle peter :)

مارس 10, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Ladies and gents.. Assalamo Allaikom .. I am back ..

Thanks for welcoming me back!

I had a nice dream a couple of days ago and I would like to share it with you (if you don't mind)!!

Being over busy with work that last few days (I would rather say sum of days) I was too away from sharing any amiable conversations which I prefer .. I dreamt that I am saying "Do you know when you are in love .. you just don't want to talk about anything but about your love .. !! .. you try to make people see your love through your eyes .. wish to make them feel what you feel .. wish they have that stream of warm feelings in their blood that you have run in yours.. !! .. when you are in love .. you just love everybody around you despite what and wish them be together with you in your place and share the Joy with you" .. “I miss talking about what I love most; Allah, his prophets and Islam”

مارس 23, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Carrying on our talk about the trinity subject, please find within this very interesting link a clarification about it, very simply said. I would invite you all to enjoy this among other nice subjects within the link.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8596690458731858361&q=30+muslims+days

And yes Neferteeti, Muslims don't believe in trinity and don't believe that this was told by Jesus PBUH or the bible that was sent by God=Allah through Jesus, but it was imposed on Christianity after the lift of Jesus who was not crusaded and who will return. Yes .. surprised ? We believe he will return :)))) .. but that is another story of the day of judgment signs.

I just may add a question here after your statement “We say Jesus is the Son of God to point out the fact that He was sent from God and He is God.” I don’t get it still! In your beliefs .. is he God or was he sent by God … don’t tell me again here that the act is all the same .. it is either HE sent himself, meaning “no sending here” he just moved himself to earth, like you can’t say I sent myself to work for example .. or .. he was sent by God which we agree to the last as Muslims, created from no man as Adam PBUH (meaning he is not the first to be created in the form of BE and so he WAS) inside Virgin Mary; the lady of virtue and whom we Muslims respect and appreciate much, then was assigned as God=Allah’s messenger for Christianity as Jesus PBUH.

مارس 23, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

You may also check the following :
We pray that such accounts will appeal to your senses as well as reconcile you with the truth, thus enlightening you in the process to the remaining facts still existent in the present versions of the Bible.
BELIEF IN THE ONENESS OF GOD (ALLAH):
Jesus was very explicit in his words about the “Unity of God” instead of the “Holy Trinity” which he never said nor preached in his lifetime:
1. Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you Satan! it is written:” you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall serve”.
2. Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him. “The first of all the commandments is: Hear O Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is one”.
3. Isiah 43:10-11 “Before me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior.”
4. John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and of Jesus Christ whom you have sent”.

مارس 23, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Just another comment, Neferteeti .. I know unifying Christians who don't believe in the trinity and who believe in one God with no son or divisibility.

Trinity was mentioned as such in the Holly Quran :
El Ma’idah Chapter : verse 5:73 it says with the meaning of “They have certainly disbelieved those who said that Allah is a third to three when no other God but Allah ….” till the end of the verse.

مارس 23, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Muslim:
'Christians' who deny both the divinity of Christ and the Trinity aren't Christians no matter how much they claim to be. Both are absolute dogmas- even Protestants uphold them.
Also don't forget that the Old testament made allusions
Here are a few links on the biblical
proofs of the Trinity

xavier

أبريل 05, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Xavier with all respect to you and your beliefs, I will pick up a text from the biblical proofs link you have sent me as follows (sixth paragraph):

“In Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema, Echad "STRESSES UNITY, WHILE RECOGNIZING DIVERSITY WITHIN THAT ONENESS" (Herbert Wolf, S.V. "echad", Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 1:30). When we turn to the Old Testament, what do we find? The writers of the Old Testament never applied yachid to God. God is never described as a solitary person. If this is the case why do Unitarians, especially Muslims try to tell Christians that it's an error believing on the Trinity when the Hebrew Text, that they use in their defense so much, shows God in the compound and not the single entity? Lets continue.”
Please note the following:

- The author mentioned “the writers”; who refer to different historians, kings, Saints .. etc., hence, you can never tell what in the old testament “Torah” is the mere words of God and what is the interpretation and addition of the writers; that includes but not limited to “Trinity” idea. Same goes for the Gospel.

- Jesus PBUH spoke Aramaic not Hebrew.

- The oldest edition of the Bible including writers input, was found 300y after Jesus and in the Greek Language. Where does that linguistic interpretation of the bible in Hebrew came from? The Greek bible was translated to Latin after !!

- Is it written in the bible that Jesus PBUH said to his followers in his time that he was the son of God ? Truly and honesty I ask, I really need to know.

- Like it “me” or not .. I know Unifiers who believe in Jesus!! Call them what you want, but I call them the people of the book and they have rights by Quran.

Stay Safe.

أبريل 09, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Muslim:
Let's be clear: the bible qua consolidated holy book was fixed by the council of Carthage. However, the GOSPELS aka Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written as early as 80 AD So within the lifetime of the Apostles (Christians hold that John the last Apostle died in 80 AD and public revelation was closed)

By 185 when Iraenus had written a booklet called Adversus Haerses (against heresies) where he blasted the Gnostics over their false gospel of Judas. So for him to have denounced this fake gospel indicates that the legitimate ones had already been written down and were circulating within the Christian communities.

I've provided you some links which provide the scriptural references for the Trinity. If you want to cite biblical references do so; but don't mix them up in the vain attempts to 'prove' God's oneness. We believe it too and the Trinity deepens our understanding of God's oneness.
Western Christians are now in Holy week- 40 days from now we'll celebrate Pentacost. That's when the Holy spirit came down and inspired the Apostles to go out and preach the Gospel to the whole world.

St Paul talked about the scandal of the Incarnation. So I'm unsuprised that Moslems don't understand. Your concept of God is flawed. He's not an absentee landowner and we're not his slaves. He's a loving father who made us in his image (imago Dei) and who sent his son to forgive our sins.

An excellent language book that explains the Trinity in simple to understand English is Frank Sheed:Theology and Sanity. It's still in print and you should be able to find it.
xavier

أبريل 11, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Moslem:

This post is on the development of the Old Testament
God keeping his Part I
Part II
Take your time and read them. If you have any questions contact Michael. He'll happily answer them.
As for where in the bible: the New testament is replete with evidence of Jesus' divinity
Here's one
Here's a post that discusses the liturgical seasons and links it with Jesus' divinity citing the Old and New testaments
Here's Jesus explicity telling the apostles of the coming of the Holy spirit

I advise you to take the time to read the articles. They aren't easy but with patience and asking Michael , you'll find these articles to be very fruitful. They'll hopefully provide you with a clearer insight about Christanity and its origins within Judaism.

xavier

أبريل 11, 2006  
Anonymous HT333 said...

Have you seen the beautiful Holy Trinity Flag. It reminds us of the Trinity God of the Bible Father/Son/Holy Spirit. It was created by a former Texas atheist who became a Christian after an encounter with the living God. May I send you a picture of it?
There is no other flag like it in the world.

مايو 14, 2009  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

Have you seen the beautiful Holy Trinity Flag. It reminds us of the Trinity God of the Bible Father/Son/Holy Spirit. It was created by a former Texas atheist who became a Christian after an encounter with the living God. May I send you a picture of it?
There is no other flag like it in the world.

مايو 14, 2009  
Blogger Tracy said...

Muslim,

First, I would like to mention how much I appreciate your ability to converse with an open & intellectual frame of mind, while still holding fast to your faith. It is admirable. I have been given more incite to Islam in a few postings than I did in an entire semester of World Religion.

I came across these postings by sheer chance, while surfing the net with an entirely different purpose. Everyone here is attempting to do the impossible. How do you define God (or Allah)? How do create a unifying visual image of what God is? And that – is probably the greatest complication, or difficulty, to explaining the Holy Trinity. It is a common practice for Christians to refer to Jesus as a Prophet, as Muslims refer to Muhammad as a Prophet. The first is a definite mistake in terminology (I dare not speak on the second with my little understanding of Islam). The definition of Prophet: a person chosen to speak for God. All of the definitions for Prophet in the dictionary have the same thing in common in that they imply interpretation. Jesus did not interpret for God. God spoke directly through Jesus. “14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory…”
How to explain the holy trinity? Here is my stab at it. If you were here in the room, than I would know of you. I would know your mind thru hearing your words. If we spent enough time together, than I could come to know you as a person by feeling your love, hate, anger, joy, etc.
The Old Testament taught me to know Of God. Jesus gave me the Word of God. The Holy Spirit allows me to Know God. The holy trinity does not define three separate Gods, but rather three aspects of the same God.
I have read several educated, and well thought out postings. I hope that I have added some value to the conversations.

يونيو 03, 2009  
Blogger Harry said...

Sisters and Bros,

The world debut of the Holy Trinity Flag will be this coming Holy Trinity Sunday
(June 7, 2009) at St. Justin Martyr Catholic Church in Houston, TX.
May this flag always remind us to give praise and thanks to our Triune God.

Holy Trinity Flag


This flag is a symbol to remind us of our faith, that we are citizens of His Kingdom, created by God the Holy Trinity. It is only fitting that the Kingdom of God should have a flag as do all nations. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are a Holy Trinity (Mt.3:16-17) . This flag will fly as a reminder of this truth giving praise and honor to our living God.



In the honor part of the flag is a red equilateral triangle depicting the equality and unity of God in three divine persons. The three white symbols within the triangle represent God in each person all interwoven within three identical circles. The circles depict the eternality of God with no beginning or end. White is the color of light and symbolizes purity and joy.



God the Father is symbolized by the Hand of God coming out from the clouds in the heavens. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).



God the Son is symbolized by the white cross which is radiating from the heart. God’s only Son, Jesus Christ, out of love for us, was sacrificed freely on the cross so that the world might be saved through Him (John 3:16-17). He is risen, living, and reigns with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.



God the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son symbolized by the white dove (John 1:32). When the flag is hung as a banner the dove image transforms to tongues as of fire (Acts 2:3). Seven white rays outline in red radiate outward bearing gifts of the Spirit (Isaiah 11:2) and produce fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). Seven is God’s number of perfection. Red is the color of fire, which the Holy Spirit will use to change our hearts and empower us with new abundant life. (Acts 2:3-4) The dove is also known as a symbol of peace.





Note: This flag should never be lowered to half-mast as God never mourns. It should always be given the highest honor above all national flags as He is one God above all nations.

يوليو 03, 2009  

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