الأربعاء، مارس 29، 2006

Attention All Muslims: Urgent Help Needed (2)

OK, I suppose you all caught on by now that the story posted in my previous entry is half true/half fiction. It is of course the story of Abdul Rahman, the Afghani man who dared announce his conversion to Christianity. It was just my way of saying “if you walked a mile in his shoes…” to any Muslim guest who may read this.

Ironically, this man is called Abdul Rahman. This is a compounded Muslim Arabic name which translates to:
Abdul= he who worships the
and Rahman=Merciful, one of Allah’s 99 names in Islam.

I say ironic, because what this man faced from this supposedly merciful God and His followers leaves a lot to be desired in the way of mercy.

He was labeled an apostate (mortadd), rejected by his own family, jailed like a common criminal, sentenced to death, “diagnosed” with mental illness, accused of converting for financial gain, ordered to forsake his new faith…

No doubt you’ve read or heard a lot about his story. I was more interested in what the Arab Islamic media and public opinion was saying. Here is some of what I found:

1) Al Jazeera:
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BF30A354-324F-4A78-9E5B-F344E9D95CFC.htm
الأفغاني المرتد يبحث عن اللجوء في الخارج
The title of the article says: The Afghani apostate seeks to leave the country.

And: http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3EF90EC-5A90-4EC0-B8CA-AFEB0650FB03.htm
الغرب يرغم كابل على إطلاق معتنق المسيحية
The west forces Kabul to free the Christian convert
And: http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7A5A8702-8972-4353-ADBF-BCEC796C53CB.htm
More pressure on Kabul in the case of the Afghani Apostateازدياد الضغوط على كابل في
قضية الأفغاني المرتد

Where we read:
وكان القاضي المكلف بالقضية في المحكمة العليا أنصار الله مولوي قال الخميس "نحاول معالجة هذه القضية بسرعة والتوصل إلى حل مرض" مؤكدا أن الإسلام "دين تسامح وعفو" متراجعا عن تصريح آخر قال فيه "إذا لم
يعد عبد الرحمن إلى الإسلام، فسيتم إنزال عقوبة الإعدام به طبقا للقانون".
The supreme court judge Ansar Allah Molawi said:we are trying to address this issue quickly to arrive at a decsision” He stressed that Islam is a religion of forgiveness and peace, and recanted an earlier statement where he said “If Abdul Rahman doesn’t return to Islam, he will be executed according to the law”

How nice of Aljazeera to keep calling Abdul Rahman an apostate, knowing full well what that label implies.


2) http://us.moheet.com/asp/show_g.asp?pg=13&lc=67&lol=1716279
وأفرجت السلطات الأفغانية عن الأفغاني بعد ضغوط مارستها الولايات المتحدة والغرب تحت ذريعة الحرية الدينية
The Afghan authorities set the man free, after continued pressure from the US and the West under the guise of religious freedom.

Wow! The guise of religious freedom?? The good people at the us.moheet don’t however say what the real motivation is. I wonder what they thought of the arrest itself, or of the fatwa that he deserves death. What were they? Statements made under the guise of a peaceful tolerant religion?

3) http://www.afghannews.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=371
Abdelsabour Shahin, an Islamist writer and academic at Cairo University, told the BBC that although Islam in principle enshrined freedom of belief, there were severe restrictions on that freedom.

"If someone changes from Islam to kufr (unbelief), that has to remain a personal matter, and he should not make it public," he said.


(hmmm! Would that be what is called toqiyya then? You know, lie just to save your skin, live the life of a coward?)

In other words, an apostate in a Muslim society, according to this view, forfeits his freedom of expression. If he goes public he should be executed, says Dr Shahin
He says there is an authoritative and unambiguous hadith (saying of the prophet) which calls for the killing of the apostate - "He who changes his religion should be killed", says Dr Shahin, quoting from the sayings of the prophet.
But Dr Shahin says the mere fact that someone goes public with his apostasy "amounts to fitna (sedition, or civil strife), he is thus like someone fighting Islam, and should therefore be killed."


(Right! He is causing trouble for Islam indeed. What happens now when more Muslims see this and want to know what attracted him to Christianity? Worse yet, what if more Muslims want to convert? Well, we wouldn’t be able to say Islam is the fastest growing religion anymore, that’s what. Nonsense, we kill him and make an example of him…after all, that’s what the great prophet said we should do…and he is the best role model we could follow. Freedom of worship?? HAH!)


4) http://global-war.bloghi.com/2006/03/27/afghan-apostate-loony-seeks-asylum.html
Rahman, 41, was arrested last month after police discovered him with a Bible

(gasp!! A Bible?!! If he was arrested with some opium, maybe we could let him go…but a Bible?? That’s criminal)


5) Now to my favorite little friends at AlArabiya.net. I don’t know what’s funnier, the articles or the readers comments.
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/03/28/22355.htm
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/03/19/22098.htm

Where many accused the man of accepting money to convert. What doesn’t make sense is that if he accepted money to convert, why would he welcome death for the sake of Christ???


In conclusion, I meant what I said…Attention all Muslims: Urgent help is needed! If you really mean what you say about the religion of peace and tolerance. About the mercy and freedom in Islam, speak up!! This man, and many others who leave Islam haven’t committed a crime. Why should they be sentenced to death? Why does the Islamic world go into hysterics about conversions, or even merely interest in other religions? Why is missionary work and proselytizing prohibited in Muslim countries, but Muslims have no such restrictions in Western countries? Why is it scary to let your people examine other faiths?

Urgent help is needed...not for Abdul Rahman, but for Islam. He no doubt has God's protection because he has put all his faith in Christ and welcomed death as a small price to pay. He doesn't need your help because he was promised:

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world John 16:33

and:

Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Luke 6:22

But it is your faith that needs your help.You keep saying that the world has the wrong impression of you and your faith...have you asked yourselves why? Have you taken a step back and looked at the image you are projecting?

46 Comments:

Anonymous Sara said...

Neferteeti said
Quote

"You reference AlArabiya.net!!! This is a news service from the GULF COUNTRIES!!! Do you expect to find anything neutral or objective there on anything regarding Mid East Christians?"

"If you get your daily dose of news from Alarabiya.net, you probably aren't familiar with good journalism anyway!"
"It is actually a very poor article from a very poor news service"

Quote

So please stop referencing to our poor media services like al jazeerah.... hahahahahah

About that abd al rahman, yes he deserves death in Islam,,,,, that is our law in Islam and we are obligated with it....and I am with the Afghanis to kill him....

Why you are so amazed about it.....isn't you Copts kill any Coptic who joined Islam????????????????
Aren't Copts who became Muslims put their life on the line because they joined Islam???????
Those copts who joined Islam lives their life escaping from place to another … escaping from the death penalty from the church
personally without media or any blabla.....my grandma had a servant who used to come twice a week to clean her house....he was originally from sohag in upper Egypt...he was the only son for a Coptic rich man....he joined Islam and he was hiding it from his family because he was afraid from getting killed....he was praying in the bathroom to be kept away from his family's eyes....until they discovered and at that point he escaped and ran away from sohag and he kept changing places to hide away from being killed....
Also I guess I posted on your site the URL address for the video of the 2 girls who joined Islam and how much they suffer...

So it is in all religions....

about your previous post about playing with the Copts ID in purpose to make all Christians be Muslims to obey al saddat..
Stop reading for these yellow poor newspaper al watany who twist the truth to serve your dream of being persecuted...

So they change the IDs of Christians to Islamist Egypt????
So why did they change the gender of my daughter to male in her computer certificate????
And also my closest friend received a military letter that she escaped from military service and she will face penalties....because in the government records ...she is MALE!!!!!

So I guess that al saddat also said that all Egyptians became Muslims and MALES!!!!!


About your last reply to me about your Coptic state and our role as Muslims in keeping Copts type of Christians existed...
read what you said about my news sources at the beginning of my post……so as you see our media is poor.......so we both not sharing the same reference ...you are disputing all the news….dropping away what you want as that copts4free organization…..so no need to discuss it any more???.... it will never end.

مارس 29, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Neferetti:
here's a Moslem apologist's take on Abdul Ramdan:
http://al-jack.blogspot.com/2006/03/what-we-have-here-is-failure-to.htmlI was offended by the gratuitious insult toward Abdul and why I don't take Moslem apoletics with any seriousness

xavier

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger free soul said...

PLZ read my comment on the previous topic we were discussing, and plz consider what i wrote...

this is a call to all reasonable minds to reconsider their ideas and their plans, before it is too late to roll back what is happening

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Poor sara...you said:

"About that abd al rahman, yes he deserves death in Islam,,,,, that is our law in Islam and we are obligated with it....and I am with the Afghanis to kill him...."

That says it all! Thank you. You just revealed your true colors.

I just came from church 1 hour ago. I was there to attend a discussion with an individual named Mohammad Al-Ghazooli a former Egyptian muslim who just converted to Coptic Orthodoxy. He wrote a book called, "Christ, Mohammad, and I".

If you give me your address I will mail you a copy of this book. It is an amazing book from someone who was basically a sheikh at Al-Azhar. This man knows the Qur'ran forwards and backwards. He worked very closely with Ghadafi in Libya. He lived in Saudi Arabia for a while and made the Hajj to Mecca 36 times!! And then he found truth.

I would love for you to read this book.

PEACE sara PEACE

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

One more thing sara.

You should go and visit some other blogs on the internet to open up that mind of yours.

I recommend you go check out two really awesome Egyptian blogs by "Egyptian Sandmonkey" and "Big Pharaoh"

Here are the links.

http://www.sandmonkeyblog.com/
http://bigpharaoh.blogspot.com/

You should really check them out to find out how free and tolerant Egyptians thinks. Personally, I check on them every day, they're truly excellent.

مارس 30, 2006  
Anonymous sara said...

Egypeter

I know peace well because it is the target of my religion....but I'm committed with my religion which addresses peace to the humanity with no doubt…
and not because the media is destroying the image of Islam…then I'll switch or change a word in my holy quran because of the world….
That is the real main difference between Islam and other religion...
We never changed the quran …but you did…it is a fact that you know it better than me….


To simplify my point of view:
You know that divorcing in Christianity is forbidden…only in cheating case…
Nowadays there is a huge debate in the Coptic society about a decision is taken by an Egyptian court that gave a Coptic the chance to marry another time….
The pope refused the decision because it is forbidden in the bible although all the Copts that suffers from that law in the bible…
So if I attacked that point in Christianity…you won't change it to brighten the view of the bible….it is an order in your religion…you are accepting it and convinced with it as I do with the penalty of leaving Islam to any other religion….



Much more you didn't comment about chasing ex- Copts who became Muslims here in Egypt...
Because it is a fact that you can't deny it….. but all what you want is assaulting and attacking Islam….

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger A Free Man said...

This proves once again that Islam is not what the socialists think it is. It can not be a religion of tolerance and peace. The teachings of mohammed expressly forbid this.
Abdul Rahman has humbled and impressed me with his faith, hope and courage in the face of this wicked religion.
This episode has also convinced me that Islam can never win this war.
They fight with murder and hate. Jesus fights with love, hope, faith and forgiveness, Mohammed is powerless when confronted by this.

مارس 30, 2006  
Anonymous Sara said...

free man

quote
"Abdul Rahman has humbled and impressed me with his faith, hope and courage in the face of this wicked religion.
This episode has also convinced me that Islam can never win this war."

actually , you are the one who is using the word WAR not muslims....
that word comes from the soul that fell hate and murder...

another thing ...if you read history...when muslims were closed to islam, they won all the battels....

so please don't use definite words like can never because it happened several times in the history

مارس 30, 2006  
Anonymous sara said...

it is very important to explain what i meant with "About that abd al rahman, yes he deserves death in Islam,,,,, that is our law in Islam and we are obligated with it....and I am with the Afghanis to kill him...."

im with the afgani in their protesting to the must of facing the execution penalty for abd al rahman...
but i'm defently not with killing him once he came out of jail by any afghni....
if the court released him_whatever it is right or wrong_ so it is the responsible authority for that case infront of God....

and as a fact...he should kept alive since the court decided that..

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Haha!

Sara, you totally changed your mind! You went from saying:

"About that abd al rahman, yes he deserves death in Islam,,,,, that is our law in Islam and we are obligated with it....and I am with the Afghanis to kill him...."

And then said this:

"im with the afgani in their protesting to the must of facing the execution penalty for abd al rahman...
but i'm defently not with killing him once he came out of jail by any afghni....
if the court released him_whatever it is right or wrong_ so it is the responsible authority for that case infront of God...."

I think maybe you realized what you initially said and then back tracked!

You know what the answer is?

No one should be killed by anybody for leaving a religion whether Chrisitanity, Judaism or Islam...period.

I don't care what you say that is against HUMANITY. Period.

And then one more question sara. I'm not sure which sheikh taught you this comment:

"That is the real main difference between Islam and other religion...
We never changed the quran …but you did…it is a fact that you know it better than me…."

Have you ever read the bible dear sara??????????????

Who brain-washed you into believing that. I've never heard that one until I started blogging and it seems like every muslim I run into says that. It's weird.

It doesn't bother me it just kinda makes me chuckle...but that's ok sara, you can believe whatever it is that you've been fed to believe.

Just like the Jews bombed the World Trade Center, right?

Just like the Jews were responsible for the tsunami, right (see sandmonkey's blog)?

Just like the Israelis are responsible for sending the bird flu to Egypt, right?
http://divedesk.com/blog/?p=268

And so on and so on. Sara, don't believe everything your hear.

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Hey sara, here's another one for you I got 5 minutes ago from the Washington Post. Pay particular attention to the conspiracy theory at the end:

Kassem is actually pretty pessimistic about where Mubarak is taking Egypt in the short term. But, before we get to that, it's worth marveling at the mini-revolution his paper has wrought. Until two years ago Egyptian media consisted of official organs such as al-Ahram, whose editors are appointed by Mubarak and routinely order up headlines like those above, and an "opposition" press that specialized in slanders against Israel, the Jewish people, the United States, Western culture -- anything other than Mubarak. Ten years ago this spring, the biggest story in Egypt, thanks to such media, was the allegation that Israel was trying to corrupt Egyptian women by distributing chewing gum that created irresistible sexual urges.

LOL. Hilarious. GUM?? I refuse to think my countrymen are THIS stupid...but maybe they are sara...I hope not.

Point is, don't believe every cockamamie thing you hear.

مارس 30, 2006  
Anonymous sara said...

Egypter

I read many articles and news post from different news media about that abd al rahmn, but the story goes from protesting till releasing him and then talking about fears from killing him by Afghanis…..and because of those fears he traveled to Italy….

So I'm with the protesting to implement al sharia law but I'm not with those fears because the afghani society has to accept him with the court decision…not to be threaten with killing from any one who is walking in the street….

Because in Islam it is forbidden to do such random killing, and the one will kill him should face the kill penalty….

I wish you got my point of view with these illustrations….

Egypter said
Quote
No one should be killed by anybody for leaving a religion whether Christianity, Judaism or Islam...period.
Quote

Do I consider that a refusal for chasing the Copts who joined Islam in Egypt?????
So it is well and ok with you that any Coptic joins Islam????
Or you going to tell me that Copts didn't join Islam or the church is not chasing them, as telling me that USA found those massive destructive and nuclear weapons in Iraq!!!!!

I read sandmonkey's view about that afghani case, and it is obvious that he was sad for not implementing al Islam although he is glad that the man is kept alive……

Also I consider his opinion about wishing to have debating about this case in Islam...and that what I have done before writing my comments….
In Islam the converter shouldn't kill once he joined another religion, but Muslim authority has to talk to him several times and if they become 100% sure that he is leaving Islam _this discussions might take years_ and if it was sure that no way then the execution penalty…..

BTW that is the procedures with Copts here…..or why do you think that the police sent wafaa costantine to the church_even we didn't hear any thing about her since that_????

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Sara:
The story of Wafaa Constatine is a very complicated story. Perhaps she did conver to Islam but given the extremely poisioned relations and such immoral activities like kidnapping Coptic women and forcing them to convert to Islam, the Copts reacted with understandable apprehension that's what happened to Wafaa.

You recognize a fudnamental difference between Christians and Moslems, Christians don't kill thoe who have left; rather they regard it as a great loss but hold out hope that they will return.And many do after a number of years. Unlike the imams, I've never heard a priest in a sermon calling on the congregation to kill those who've left and no pope (Catholic or Orthodox) has ever supported murder of those who leave.

As for Abdul Raham, the imams wanted Krazhai to prevent Abul from leaving the country. Shouldn't the imams be happy that an apostate has left the country and won't bother them again?
I disagree with you that it takes years and the death sentence isn't carrdid out. If that were so why do Islamic converts to Christanity hide from Moslems even in Europe and North America? Could it be the instant death sentence? That's the threat that Abdul faces in Italy.


xavier

مارس 30, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

You're really stuck on Wafaa Constantine, huh?

Yet you ignor the hundreds if not thousands of Christian abductions that occur in Egypt.

Why do you do that sara?? Why are you NOT objective??? HUH?

Go check out Neferteetit's post on Theresa Ghattas, what do you have to say about that? Or are you gonna say, "Well, about Wafaa Constatntine, blah blah blah"

Wafaa Constantine was an idiot, fine. But don't ignore the facts of the other thousands who HAVE BEEN abducted, raped, or forcibly converted, OK?

Peace sara.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger free soul said...

Peter, don't rush like that into things you don't know very well!!

I can tell you things you don't know too, if you talk about the nonsense some muslims say about tsunami or the WTC i can tell you about nonsense christians said about leaders in the world, roman empire, the pope and even henry kessenger!!! and they said all that was written in the bibile and they just conclude that out of it!!

don't rely on weak minds as a clue this won't lead you to anything

and tell me, muslim girls don't get kidnapped?? if 1000 girls got kidnapped from 10 milion christians, how could you say that this has anything to do with religion while in the same year several southands of girls disappear...

what if one case, as nefertiti stated, called her family and said she was kidnapped, how could you judge that all the others were kidnapped and they were kidnapped for religious reasons!!

and for gods sake she tells me a funny story about persons kidnapping a girl and raping her after trying to make her wear the veil... how could any mind believe such nonsense?? if they are religous muslims as they want her to wear veil then how come they rape her!!! that is simply nonsense and yellow news fabricated to scare chrisitans and spread hate in here

I lived here for all my life, I have friends from all sides and i never faced or heared of similar thing, stop acting in this agressive way then, this is unbearable anymore

finally, madness never comes from a religion it just comes from ignorance..

stop talking in islam because you are just attacking without knowing a thing about it, you look also ignorant with the bibile, I read the bible many times and spent monthes studing it and i can tell you many things , but i don't care and i won't because i don't see a use of such a debate ever, so plz let your debate concentrate on how to make our life better together, because we are obligated to live together on this land weather you like that or not

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Free Soul -

you said:

"and tell me, muslim girls don't get kidnapped?? if 1000 girls got kidnapped from 10 milion christians, how could you say that this has anything to do with religion while in the same year several southands of girls disappear..."

You misunderstood me. I didn't say 1000 Christian girls are kidnapped or forcibly converted annually. Neither of us know what the numbers are. I was just generalizing on the ill treatment of Christians in Egypt, on and off, since the inception of Christianity. I was referencing the harsh treatment that Christians have endured from Roman rulers and many Muslim rulers. But for the sake of modern day Egypt we need to look past these events and forget many of those wounds. But at the same time we must never forget the sacrifices made and the lessons that history has hopefully taught us.

You also said:

"stop talking in islam because you are just attacking without knowing a thing about it, you look also ignorant with the bibile, I read the bible many times and spent monthes studing it and i can tell you many things , but i don't care and i won't because i don't see a use of such a debate ever,"

I don't really care much for the personal attack on my knowledge of the bible. You've spent months studying the bible, free soul?? Really? I find it hard to believe that you would be an authority on the bible. Are you reciting commentary from books that you may have received at that "Englightenment Center" I read about on this blog? You should read it.

http://neferteeti.blogspot.com/2006/02/how-enlightening.html

Because if those are your sources, I really don't need to hear it.

But you also said:

"so plz let your debate concentrate on how to make our life better together, because we are obligated to live together on this land weather you like that or not"

Now, in this point I agree with you 100 percent. There is no doubt that we need to work together, ALL Egyptians, Christian, Muslim, women, all on equal ground, to build a better Egypt. We need all the best minds of Egypt working together to acheieve this enourmous goal. We've done this many times in the past and there's no reason to think that we can't do it again in the future. I have several muslim friends here in Chicago that I am good buddies with. I wish it could be the same way in Egypt, too.

Peace

مارس 31, 2006  
Anonymous sara said...

Free soul , you preceded me with that nice comment, but actually I wrote one with the same meaning at the afternoon and I couldn't post it because the server was down….

So I'll post it now:)))

Egypter

In another time I would accept how much you keen about your holy book, but nowadays while every literate and illiterate is talking about Quran and Islam…..NO WAY

What is this wired question of asking me if I read the bible?
Did you read al Quran?
Read it Arabic or English translation????
What source of translation you read???
Is the translator Muslim scientist, or Christian or Jewish or ANTI- MUSLIM??????
What description you read for al suras????
What is the reason of many suras???
What is the wisdom behind many laws in our sharia????
Who is Prophet Mohamed (PBUH)?
What do you know about his life???
What is al hadith???
Who are al sahaba and their life????
I can ask you zillions of questions non stop….

But what I see nowadays that all the world become experts in Islam!!!!!
I wasn't care about Bible alteration or Christianity generally, but I read many advices from westerns to us_Muslims_ to change in Quran and Islam to meet the new world civilization as they did before!!!
They are talking about the Europeans revolution on the church in the mid ages of Europe!!!!!

So it is not a rumor made up by Muslims ….. It is a fact that is every where in the west……
Don't deny it…..FACE IT….

I read and listen to debates between Muslim scientists and priests about the holy bible like the famous one of Sheikh Ahmed deedat and priest jimmy swaggart….

Go and listen if you want to know it from the right sources
Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart - Is Bible God's Word _Click Here_

مارس 31, 2006  
Anonymous Sara said...

Xavier , Egypter

Quote
Christians don't kill thoe who have left; rather they regard it as a great loss but hold out hope that they will return.And many do after a number of years. Unlike the imams, I've never heard a priest in a sermon calling on the congregation to kill those who've left and no pope (Catholic or Orthodox) has ever supported murder of those who leave.
Quote

Please Explain:WHY YOU CHASE THEM?????

Listen to the video of the 2 coptic girls who joined Islam 2 years ago, and their mother was claiming that they were kidnapped ……….
And tell me then:
Are they kidnapped???
Are they escaping from the Coptic church???

Answer me according to the video, not to your reads about the imaginary persecution and kidnapping girls…..

فيديو الفتاتين كريستين وماريان الذي أعلنتا فيه إسلامهما


Free soul said
Quote
and for gods sake she tells me a funny story about persons kidnapping a girl and raping her after trying to make her wear the veil... how could any mind believe such nonsense?? if they are religous Muslims as they want her to wear veil then how come they rape her!!! that is simply nonsense and yellow news fabricated to scare chrisitans and spread hate in here
quote

I'm 1000% agreeing with free soul but I want to add one main important thing…..
Why did those imaginary kidnappers Muslims force Christian girls for wearing the veil????/
Aren't there thousands of Muslim girls here in Egypt don't wear the veil????
If it is true???We should also hear about kidnapping unveiled Muslim girls!!!!!

Egypter

I wish from all of my heart that you really want the great of Egypt and the Egyptians whether Muslims or Copts….
In that blog I tried with all the possible means to show you the nonexistence of the persecution and discrimination…but I felt that no one is hearing…..
Try to think about egypt in an econimical, political and educational problems.....
that is the main issue that all the egyptians in egypt are thinking about nowadays....
share us in our real problems

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Sara:
I'm not Egyptian and I don't speak Arabic. However, given the immoral practices of kidnapping Coptic women and forcibly converting them, it's a prudential reaction by the mom.
If Egypt and other Moslem countries were normal, such conversion would cause the alarm that they do. Moslems represent about 80-90% of Egypt's population and yet the Moslems feel so insecure that to reinforce their self esteem they need to kidnap and forcibly convert non-Moslem women.

Pakistan has a similar phonemeon with the Hindu (who represent 0,6% of the population)

It's telling that you use the word escape. When Christians convert to another religion or to another Christian denomination or lapse, they never talk about escaping and nor do they see themselves fleeing from Christanity. Do you imply that's how Moslem converts to Christanity see their conversion: an escape?

xavier

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Thanks everyone for your interest and your contribution.

I'll now to respond to certain points that I'd like to address.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

RE: The falsification of the Bible:
I wish our Muslim brothers and sisters would stop saying this, as they are actually going against their own Quran when they do. Sara; You are the second Muslim guest on this blog, and probably the Millionth in general to accuse us of a=having a false Bible. With the help of many other references, i'll put together a post to show you why that the very Quran you belive in says it couldn't happen.

And by the way I read the Quran in Arabic, from a copy purchased from an Islamic bookshop in Cairo. I also read Ahadith in Arabic according to Bukhari, Musslim, Tabari. I know the difference between a "sahih" hadith and a "weak" hadith. Like I said before Sara; I studied Islam at the hands of Muslims...Egyptian Muslims in Egypt.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

RE: News sources:

I quoted AlJazeera and AlArabiyya to illustrate the image projected to the average Arab by an Arab news source. Not because I highly regard or even mildly respect those sources. I wasn't using the references to verify a point of view I held. Rather I used them to show how poisoned the Arab media is, and how it is poisoning the average person's mind.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

RE: Copts kiling converts to Islam:

The case told here by Sara is of a man from Upper Egypt; Sa3eedi. By the way that's where my dad's family is from, Sohag!
His family sure would have wanted to get to him...possibly even kill him. But you are talking about people to whom honor killings and revenge killings used to be a way of life back then (who knows about now).

You fail to give an example of Biblical text, or even a statement by a Coptic pope, or even if you heard the priest down the street saying "He who converts to Islam must be killed". That's the difference!! Same difference applies to the Crusades and the Inquisition. There is NO Biblical text to support those events....they were the works of mere misguided men.

But the Quran and Ahadith clearly support the killing of an apostate. A supposedly peaceful religion is encouraging the murder of a soul just because they dared walk away. Do you see what I mean? It's a difference between Religious texts and the actions of humans

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Now RE: Forced conversions of minors:

It's becoming somewhat funny to hear Muslims retort to this issue. You're guaranteed to hear:
Wafaa Costantine
and/or
Marina and Christina

They are the poster girls for the supposed persecuted willing converts to Islam!!!

And it's so laughable how many Muslims will yoyo between feeling sorry for them and pittying their miserable lives running away from their murderous families or being locked away in a convent....to calling them harlots and loose women who desserted their families running after good pious Muslim men!!

Sara in a previous post regarding those women whose rights she suddenly defends now::
it is their family problems who failed to raise their girls on our real traditions and how to be polite and there are many limits in talking with boys....also wafaa kostantine who no one knows what happened to her after el dair took her.... she was knowing a Muslim friend in her work....how could a married woman do such thing...
go and fix those women and ladies ethics and don't make us -Muslims- the reason for every bad thing happen to you according to your bad raising for those families..

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

They are talking about the Europeans revolution on the church in the mid ages of Europe!!!!!

So it is not a rumor made up by Muslims ….. It is a fact that is every where in the west……
Don't deny it…..FACE IT….


hmmmm...no it's not fact!! the revolution they speak of had nothing to do with altering the Bible. Do you know what that revolution is?? It was merely to divorce the Church from the State. That's basically it...nobody touched or changed the Bible.

Just because you read something that supports a certain bias or idea you have, it doesn't mean it is undisputable fact.

By the way, this sheikh Deedat was answered by many priests in Egypt and out. He has the right to say what he wants but it doesn't take away anything from the Bible or Christianity
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

and for gods sake she tells me a funny story about persons kidnapping a girl and raping her after trying to make her wear the veil...

If you think that's funny, then you have a warped sense of humor my friend!!
These events happened, they aren't a story. You don't have to believe it, you obviously don't want to believe it...but respectfully, if you don't like what you;re reading here, you don't have to come back.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Xavier, Pete and Free Man:

I clearly agree with you so I won't comment on your input other than to say: Thank you for saying it!

Peace to All who contributed.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Thanks Neferteeti.

I didn't have it in me to continue to try and reason with her anymore. I was done.

God bless Neferteeti.

مارس 31, 2006  
Blogger maged salamah said...

Sara,
Your prophet Muhammad said that you are an inferior sex object. Check out famous quotes by that man. http://democraticegypt.blogspot.com/2006/03/muhammad-to-women-you-are-inferior.html
I am not quite sure why you defend such a misogynist

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger free soul said...

Peter,

Yes I spent long time learning in christianity, and no, i don't get my sources from this nonsense becausse i respect all religions and I believe that if you want to learn about something, get it from its right sources not from those who attack it (did you do the same with your islamic info)?

And do you know what did I reach?? I reached that all religions call for peace, all religions have the same basis and call for the same morals, they call us to love each other but we are using "defending the religion" as a reason to hate each other and destroy our lives, that is all what i found

I will not get into debate about religion and hope you don't get into it too, let that be for those qualified and let us debate about the future of egypt, i didn't come here to take you back with me to islam, i came here to take you back to egypt

you got muslim friends in chicago? great, doesn't they look to you like kidngappers?? so plz stop "generalizing" as you said and be specific, if an accident happened and you don't know the numbers then don't make up big numbers or say "generalizing on the ill treatment of Christians in Egypt" because in egypt we are all ill treated from thousands of years, it has nothing to do with islam because when the roman empire followed a different rule in christianity, things where much worse for egyptian christians!!

i don't tell you forget the past, this won't be fair, what i tell you is to be fair enough to relate the crime to the criminal, stop attaching it with islam blindly as if we are all criminals walking in the street waiting to find a christian girl to kidnapp her!!

Peace my friend and consider my words because i think the egyptian society is going to blow up soon

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger free soul said...

bent el neel, consider if i tell you that a priest from the church kidnapped a girl and after he tried to make her convert, he rapped her?? would you find much sence in that??

I don't believe it because i still have my mind that tells me sometimes, this story seems to be fake

take care that such fake stories are made to scare the christians, not us, I wonder for the good of who!!!???

such stories have no real source and mostly don't hold for a well defined investigation so why are you spreading such things? how do you expect the effect on the relations between muslims and christians?? why did you assume that the girls that are kidnapped are being forced to islam (forcing someone in islam has no meaning in our religion, he has to come on his own by the way!!)

there is a lot of things that you say are related to your point of view of things which i tried hard to make you see that it was a pre-defined point of view forced on all of us to see, you see us crimnials and we see you our enemies who call for the west for help, and finally we end up all loosers


of course i didn't like your un-kind answer at all, and as you said I will not return here, I tought i would find a lestining ear willing to work for the good of egypt, but somehow I am getting kicked out for being honest in my reply!!

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Bent el neel:
You're welcome we Christians: West and East; Copt and Latin need to stick together and witness our Lord's gospel :)

Sara:
I echo Egypter and Bent's exasperation when Moslems accuse Christians of corrupting the bible
As I pointed out in an earlier comment, Islam's peculiar doctrine of revocation is deeply problematic with respect to the 10 commndments.

Also be prepared to explain the Koran's reasonability and inerrancy to non-Moslems. And Moslems mustn't be afraid of the rigourous study of the Koran. If the Bible has survived it; so can the Koran.
xavier

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Listen Free Soul.

I have never said ALL Muslims are lying in ambush in the streets of Cairo to abduct Coptic girls and convert them!!

I never said that. And of course my muslim buddies in Chicago don't look like kidnappers.
Look, you would be hard-pressed to find someone who aknowledges the fact that we all need to work together, muslims and copts, to build a better Egypt. I have a forward-looking vision for Egypt. I dream of a day that Egypt becomes a secular, civil society that treats all of its citizens with equality, respect and EVEN love!

But then you also said that all Egyptians (muslim and copt) are suffering in Egypt. No doubt. The economy in Egypt is miserable, employment opportunities are miserable, the government is reckless and miserable, so YES it is difficult for all Egyptians. I agree with you.

Now, combine that with being a Christian in an increasingly Islamic country and I hope you can understand why Copts' inside and outside of Egypt are concerned. As if Egyptians need to be MORE religious?? They're already religious enough. And then when you combine religion and politics we are in BIG TROUBLE.

Unfortunatley, there has also been an increase in sectarian violence in recent months which should be a cause for alarm.

You asked for specifics so here you go:

The Alexandrian Riots
The Al-Udusayat Riots

Both of these happened within the last several months. They were both very very ugly. They happened by a group of Muslims against Christians. They were violent and a deep shame for Egypt and the victimes WERE ALL CHRISTIAN. Now, I know that not ALL muslims condone these things, but unfortunately Free Soul, many do.

Free Soul, I think, from what you're saying that you are an individual that wouldn't agree with these type of actions. Actually, I know you don't agree because you mentioned that before. But, please aknowledge that crimes are committed in Egypt based soley on one's relgious afilliation and when that happens then it becomes a Hate Crime. At least in the U.S. there's a big difference in punishment when something is considered a "hate crime." But until Egyptians agree that there are problems and that these crimes do occur (based soley on religion) than we can never begin the healing proccess and we will be unable to move forward together as a society.

Peace

BTW - I agree that we should not debate religion. This is something that only Egytians do. Never in my life here in the U.S. is religion a topic of discussion with my muslim or american buddies. We leave that as a personal matter and we don't talk about it. We know that neither will be able to convince the other so we simply avoid it but we're still able to be friends. I think Egyptians would be wise to try and do the same.

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Hey Sara -

Please please read this OJECTIVE article by Mona El-Tahawy, a Muslim writer who attended the Conference in Washington in November.

Please read it and let me know what you think.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=20727

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

I regret that free soul thinks i was kicking him out. I merely highlighted the fact that he, and many Muslims who visit and comment, get so upset by what they read and they try to dissuade me instead of actually discussing the issue.

All i got is "no it didn't happen" "i don't believe you" "it doesn't make sense to me"
and that's supposed to be a water tight argument?

I wasn't being unkind, rather i was offended at the insensitivity by which these issues are regarded. I tell him a girl threw herself from the balcony to escape her captors, he says it's a funny story!!! Who's being unkind here??

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

re: religious debate:
It is in fact the Muslim guests here that initiate religious debate. I never wanted to or intended to get into religious debate.

For some reason, Muslims see our openness about what goes on in Egypt as an offence to their faith and they retaliate by accusing us of having a false Bible and weak faith.

Nor did I ever claim that I see all Muslims as criminals. I clearly stated more than once that I acknowledge this. I merely expressed my disappointment that even good moderate Muslims don't want to acknowledge there is a problem, and instead of woring together like free soul says, they demand we stop talking about our problems...just so we don't upset everyone!!!! Moreover, by his own admission; free soul thinks we're all enemies!!!

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger free soul said...

Egpeter,

I am happy you have such understanding, but I want you to investigate more to know the reasons behind such vilent acts!!

1- I wonder how did that church play got into CDs and spread that wide? and after all I still accuse the church for not saying a word for 2 weaks at least before those riots start, I know there has been a demand for apology from the church on the extremely offensive contents of the play, but nothing happened until the evil rage riots start

on the other hand, udaysat riots are extremely offensive to me as a muslim before it is to you as a christian, I still believe that all what happens is just out of muslims feeling crushed in a low-less country, so they find the first chance to prove they still can act and do something, I am not trying to give apologies for evil here rather than making it clear as a step to solve it

and as you said and i totally agree, we need to solve the problems of all egypt, especially the christians.

I will not answer any more comments here, execuse me for that

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger free soul said...

"if you don't like what you;re reading here, you don't have to come back.
"

if you have another explaination for that other than "you are not welcomed here" plz tell me!!

that is exactly the same i say when i want to kick someone out of my class room!!!
==============================
bent el neel, I have the freedom to believe or not, I believe it is part of my rights and coming here can't be combined with a low to buy all what you say, right? i still have the right to accept or reject what i want, don't you put by your words some kind of terrorism on my mind??
==============================
bent el neel, I get almost weekly stories about things christians do here in egypt, I delete the mail right away and send back to the sender to blame him.. that is the difference here, I don't co-operate in spreading the hate!! you would get astonished by the number of stories i receive and never come out neither on my blog, nor from my mail, ever!!
===============================
bent el neel, I know some facts, among them are bad things done by christians to christians who convert to islam (my family is in position to know things running in their work area and i know it is handled silently), I never said that and never blamed christians for that because I believe this is not out of religion but believe this happens out of sick minds, yet i still don't publish them because i don't believe this is the right thing to do, this is not the way out, never!!
=================================
bent el neel, parts of your talk are very biased against us, yes i can see that and i can extract that from your own posts, sometimes you also tend to give explaination based on your idea about islam,
"hmmm! Would that be what is called toqiyya then? You know, lie just to save your skin, live the life of a coward?)"
==============================
"For some reason, Muslims see our openness about what goes on in Egypt as an offence to their faith and they retaliate by accusing us of having a false Bible and weak faith."
yes, we do, because mostly you attach islam in the topic as if it is the source of the bad things happening to them, exactly like relating the rape of a girl to a trial to convert her to islam, it would be a new way to convert someone to a religion by raping her!!!


==============================
bent el neel,
if you accuse islam with what muslims do, i will not accuse christianity with what christians do, that is because i am not biased against anyone, at least now because i experienced being biased once before!!
=============================
bent el neel, what we suffer from here is not islam, not christianity and not descrimination, it is ignorance that moves the crowds in an evil way, both crowds muslims and christians do the same when they can and you know that because both are ignorant, crushed in life, poor, hungry and misrable

if you want to save them, save them but your way needs revision I believe, it is up to you to take my words, think in them or drop them
==============================
I understand how you feel and know that you have good intentions, but most evil acts happen with good intentions.

I know also that you are not to be blamed much about the bad image you have about islam, yet it is your duty to find the turth and before that you need to be extremely careful in what you say about my religion because you may say things that hurt me!!
==============================
I came here for the last time to give you my final words, thanks anyway for the discussion

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

just to set the record straight, here's what i said in the very first post i published about the kidnappings:
http://neferteeti.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_neferteeti_archive.html
You may or may not believe what you read....that's up to you. But I felt that ignoring the pain of these women adds more humiliation to what they have already suffered. It's the duty of anyone with a conscience to, in the very least, give a voice to their suffering.

so i never actually implied, nor do i imply now that anyone who reads what i write is obliged in any way to believe it. I have no reason to kick anyone out of the blog. Over the past few months I have entered into many discussions with people who disagreed with me...I don't expect everyone to believe me, take my word for it, or adopt my thoughts. Nor do I ask that anyone opposing me should stop what they are saying just because i think it's wrong or irresponsible. I expect nothing less from my guests.

أبريل 01, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Now I know that free soul is gone, but hey it's my blog...i want to respond to what he said in any case!

I'm grateful for having had this discussion with him, just as i am for all the discussions i have with any guest here. This discussion actually served to emphasise the point i have always made...
the fundamentalists abuse us.
the moderate Muslims ignore us at best.
At worst they actually tell us to be quiet little mice otherwise they'll also turn against us.

We wish we could really work together to improve things for all concerned. We don't care about your religion, other than the fact that Islam is what those who abuse us use against us.

Anyway, i do wish free soul all the best and i wish for my country Egypt peace and prosperity for all those who dwell in it

أبريل 01, 2006  
Anonymous Muslim said...

Hello everybody .. sorry for popping in toooooo late as usaul :))) .. however .. I wanted to publish what I have posted on the same subject on Al-Jack's blog. I will certainly read other opinoins later .. but now ..

Quote

I would like to thank Neferteeti for allowing everybody to her interesting blog assuring the following :

1- A religious debate is not our intention.

2- Introducing Islam correctly and mending misconceptions about Islam through answering questions (that is initiated by others) is the motive.

3- “No compulsion in Religion” is our duty to follow. Hence, I assure here that Islam maintain "The Freedom of Religion Choice" where killing for conversion was never applied by Islamic Sharia as a prescribed punishment for converting, either in Prophet Muhammad’s time PBUH, nor after. Also, no single verse in Quran states this punishment as prescribed for mere conversion.

4- The “apostate” word is a translation by non-Arabs to the Arabic word “converter” and in fact there is a great difference linguistically between both. Apostate by language stands for “traitor” and the traitor in every religion and country law faces the punishment of death for treason.

5- We Muslims use “converting” from Islam as we use “reverting” to Islam. In this case, if the converter commits a crime of society treason by telling lies and fabricating conceptions, killing, stealing public property .. etc. leading to community non safety reasoning it for “converting”, then he is an Apostate and it is up to the judge in his territory to condemn him to whichever punishment he might see adequate up to death punishment, to keep the community safe. Worthy mentioning here that; that who puts the community in a non-safe position is a “terrorist”.

6- If the converter is peaceful and so he wishes to convert; by Islam, he is not to be punished in life time, for he/she in the life after will be judged by Allah.

unquote

أبريل 09, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Muslim:
No compulsion in religion? That's nice except it's a lie. Look at the irrationality that surrounded Abdul Rahman's conversions. Also why must Moslem converts to Christanity be discreet in EUROPE and NORTH AMERICA? Why do they fear murder by a Moslem? Why can't Christians opening practice their faith in Saudi Arabia? Why can't the Jews come to the peninsula?
Whenever Moslems talk about relgious tolerance I laugh at you for the liars you are.
There was a time that apostasy was a criminal offense but the west evolved and realized that corecing people to believe in God was pretty stupid as well as counterproductive. It wasn't easy to develop the policy of religious tolerence but it's been a positive development.

Apostate is a Greek word not a translation of some imaginary Arab one. Conversion and reversion are 2 totally different concepts. In Catholicism a revert is one who was Catholic lapsed in his faith but returned to it. A convert is one who comes from a different religion or even atheism to Catholicism (the same could be said of a Catholic who becomes a Copt or even a Muslim)
I ignore the Moslem usage of the word revert because it's not supported by reality.

xavier

أبريل 11, 2006  
Blogger David said...

Egypeter spoke of "Mohammad Al-Ghazooli, a former Egyptian muslim who just converted to Coptic Orthodoxy."

I have his book, "Christ, Mohammad and I," and I would like to contact the author. Do you have any way I can do that?

Thank you.

يونيو 02, 2006  
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这里是菜地[url=http://www.blog.163.com/yuanyi02shucai] 菜地[/url]有好多菜
他是兽人皇帝grubby[url=http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1247006575] 兽族皇帝grubby[/url],orc,fighting!
想要美丽健康,去美丽健康网[url=http://www.stuu.net/jiankang] 美丽健康网[/url]

أكتوبر 19, 2006  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

尖锐湿疣
排铅
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中国康网
成人用品
尖锐湿疣治疗
中国癌症网

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胃癌
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结肠癌
皮肤癌
甲状腺癌
胰腺癌
前列腺癌
膀胱癌
骨癌
鼻咽癌
脑瘤

癌症
乳腺癌
肺癌
胃癌
食管癌
肿瘤
直肠癌
结肠癌
肝癌
宫颈癌
脑瘤
甲状腺肿瘤
胆囊癌
胆管癌
前列腺癌
白血病
鼻咽癌
肾癌
恶性淋巴瘤
皮肤癌
喉癌
舌癌
胰腺癌
膀胱癌

健康网
癌症
抗癌中药
肿瘤
胶囊类
片剂类
丸剂类
口服液类
散剂冲剂
针剂类
外用药类


牛皮癣
白癜风
鱼鳞病
脂溢性皮炎
脂溢性脱发
斑秃脱发
湿疹
阴虱
带状疱疹
狐臭
青春痘
中国文秘网
皮肤病
皮肤病医药网
牛皮癣
脂溢性皮炎
斑秃
白癜风
鱼鳞病
脂溢性脱发
阴虱
生殖器疱疹
皮癣
湿疹
青春痘
螨虫

健康
播客天下
华东信息网
牛皮癣
白癜风
鱼鳞病
脂溢性皮炎
脂溢性脱发
斑秃脱发
湿疹
阴虱
带状疱疹
狐臭
青春痘

这里有名言警句 名言警句
这里是菜地 菜地有很多菜
他是兽人皇帝grubby 兽族皇帝grubbyorc,fighting!
想要美丽健康,去美丽健康网 美丽健康网

أكتوبر 19, 2006  

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