To Peter, Mohamed and Mustafa
OK! I'm back, and feeling better and would like to address your comments on post: مصر ليست وطنا نعيش به و لكنها وطن يعيش فينا
Because I missed the opportunity to respond to a few comments, I thought I'd address them in a separate post.
First of all, thank you all for everything you contributed to this discussion.
Pete; I just wanted to say thanks mate. I really appreciated your info on the early history of the Copts. I learnt some things I didn't know before.
Here are the points I wanted to address:
* RE: books cited in a previous post that attack Christianity, Mohamed said: Christians shouldn't take it as offensive...
But we do. Same way Muslims around the world thought the cartoons were offensive, but the cartoonists didn't think they were. They are offensive. That man Abu Islam Ahmad Abdalla who wrote some of the books cited, and owns that "Center for Enlightenment" has a website FILLED to the brim with anti-Christian slogans. If you are interested and can read Arabic go to http://www.baladynet.net/ and see the hatred oozing out the screen at you.
What do you call that Mohamed??
That vile individual says the following:
- Responses to "the people of the cross"
- Crimes of the Christians
- We're here to resist "Christening" our society (what on earth is he talking about??)
Here are some of his books:
- Sharia is the solution (to what?)
- The story of a nation called Egypt: where he claims to dispel "lies" by the Christians that Muslims aren't originally Egyptians and Copts (the man must be hallucinating)
- Sexual deviants in the church
- Pope Shenouda and Sectarian violence
And many more outright ridiculous claims and absurd arguments that are at best conspiracy theories and half truths. He even attempted a couple of articles about Catholics and Orthodox dialogue, like he can even begin to understand that issue. Do you not think that's offensive??
He's there attacking everything we hold dear and holy, beginning with our faith, our Christ, our Bible and ending with our Pope. Yet how many Copts did hear of that demanded an apology from him?
How many demonstrations peaceful or violent came of this?
How many Copts went on TV and threatened him with murder, like Amr Adeeb threatened Father Zakaria indirectly that if he set foot in Egypt he'll be "torn to pieces"??
Keep in mind that Father Zakaria never uses such vulgar expressions and emotive language like this guy. I personally have listened to and watched
70 episodes from Fr. Zakaria's program and there was never an insult directed at anyone. He merely discussed issues that are written in Islamic books...books that are not from biased sources, rather they are books that Al Azhar would use and endorse.
If you see a wrong thing and hope to tell the one who believe in this thing that it's not correct,but in the same time you want to keep his feelings,Will you leave him,saying that his feelings is more important than correcting his ideas?!!
No Mohamed, but I wouldn't antagonise him/her either. Besides, how do YOU know you aright and I'm wrong?
It's human nature for each of us to believe that they are right. Otherwise, we wouldn't carry on something that we believe is wrong. We all have values and beliefs that we are convinced are correct. That's fine. What's NOT fine is to get too comfortable and disregard other people's values and views.
We live in an age where information about just everything is just a click of a mouse away. If I wanted to learn a language, get an obscure recipe, chat to a guy from Iceland, learn about Buddhism, see Alaska I could do so right here from my own comfortable home.
What's more important than showing someone the error of THEIR ways, is showing them the goodness of yours. In the Christian faith we learn that the best way to glorify God is to show others how His love can change you. The Lord says: Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Matthew 5:13
At the end I apologize if I insulted you or your religion or if I caused harm to you,and ask Allah to forgive me if I did wrong.
No Mohamed, you don't need to apologise to us. Christianity has endured 2000 long years and it is still standing firm. As a Christian I believe that a word uttered against my faith, or an act intended to weaken my church is as much for the glory of God as a good word or a charitable act.
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.Luke 6:22-23
Mustafa:
Thank you for your well worded comment and your your good sentiment. Please allow me to discuss a couple of things you brought up.
* RE: the definition of Copt: You are correct, except we (Christian Egyptians) were always labeled Copts. Perhaps a distinction left over from the days when Christians were strictly Egyptians and Muslims strictly Arabs.
Also if we really want to live with each other in peace & harmony we should forget all the past. Then we should really think about the relationship between Muslims & Christians in Egypt.
I respectfully disagree Mustafa. By no means is it positive to dwell on the past. However, the past must be acknowledged before we can move on. If we simply forget the past, we will not learn from past mistakes. If we simply forget the past we cannot understand how the current situation precipitated.
The first thing a doctor does when attempting to diagnose or treat an illness, is to check the patient's history. What the Egyptian society is suffering these days is an illness. Before we eradicate it we need to know where it started and how it got here. Until we all, Muslims and Christians acknowledge this, it will be too difficult to heal.
Another point is the impact on the Coptic community. I'm not too familiar with Egyptian law, but here in Australia and I believe in the States they have a similar thing (Pete am I right?), we have something called "Victim Impact Statement". This is a chance given to victims of crimes (Or their families if the victim themselves is deceased as a result of the attack) to tell the court how the crime affected them. This statement is often considered by the judge when handing down the sentence. But more importantly, the victim knows their feelings are important and that they've been heard.
That's what I personally would like to see. It hurts more than you can imagine when good, level headed Muslims who don;t condone violence and are peaceful people, deny the obvious. If all you moderate Muslims came out and said "it's true, there's been injustice...let's work on it" then things would be different. What has been happening however, is that mostly, moderate Muslims lecture us on the glories of peaceful Islam and maybe sometimes they might admit there's possibly an injustice or two against some Copts by a tiny minority of Muslims who probably don't understand Islam.
The idea of not accepting conversations between us in religion really scares me out. Because let's face it, if I died while I am practicing the wrong religion then I might get damned from salvation. I always remember something my prophet said one. He said that if god has a son then I should be the 1st to believe in that. Simply this means that Muslims & Christians really should talk about what the believe. Through history there were hundreds of conversions from each side as a result to these conversations.
Religious dialogue is not a bad thing. However, when it's one sided then it IS. The comment I made to Mohamed was in light of his constant one sided argument that absolutely disregarded anything of the opposite side. Also Mohamed has constantly asked me (and Amillennialist on his blog): not to take verses out of context, and to cite neutral sources. Two requests I feel he himslef failed to carry out numerous times. I am not having a go at you Mohamed, I'm just explaining the context of my comment to Mustafa.
Christians should never accuse Muslims of kidnapping their children & force them to convert.
No they shouldn't, if it were untrue. But in many cases it is in fact the truth that girls are kidnapped and/or coerced to convert.
Mosques don't really need permission to be built. I dream that someday Churches get the same facilities like mosques
Bless you for that, so do we!
At last I have to say that none of our dreams will be accomplished if we didn't really have the well to accomplish them. Both religions believe in love & believe that god is love. We all should ask god for mercy & salvation. We all should ask god for guidance
Amen to that!! But God isn't going to do it all for us, like you said WE have to have the will to change things. I for one, add my voice to yours in prayer that God guide us all to what is right.
Now that I waffled on for so long, I probably bored you all to tears :)
Thanks again for your valuable contributions.
Because I missed the opportunity to respond to a few comments, I thought I'd address them in a separate post.
First of all, thank you all for everything you contributed to this discussion.
Pete; I just wanted to say thanks mate. I really appreciated your info on the early history of the Copts. I learnt some things I didn't know before.
Here are the points I wanted to address:
* RE: books cited in a previous post that attack Christianity, Mohamed said: Christians shouldn't take it as offensive...
But we do. Same way Muslims around the world thought the cartoons were offensive, but the cartoonists didn't think they were. They are offensive. That man Abu Islam Ahmad Abdalla who wrote some of the books cited, and owns that "Center for Enlightenment" has a website FILLED to the brim with anti-Christian slogans. If you are interested and can read Arabic go to http://www.baladynet.net/ and see the hatred oozing out the screen at you.
What do you call that Mohamed??
That vile individual says the following:
- Responses to "the people of the cross"
- Crimes of the Christians
- We're here to resist "Christening" our society (what on earth is he talking about??)
Here are some of his books:
- Sharia is the solution (to what?)
- The story of a nation called Egypt: where he claims to dispel "lies" by the Christians that Muslims aren't originally Egyptians and Copts (the man must be hallucinating)
- Sexual deviants in the church
- Pope Shenouda and Sectarian violence
And many more outright ridiculous claims and absurd arguments that are at best conspiracy theories and half truths. He even attempted a couple of articles about Catholics and Orthodox dialogue, like he can even begin to understand that issue. Do you not think that's offensive??
He's there attacking everything we hold dear and holy, beginning with our faith, our Christ, our Bible and ending with our Pope. Yet how many Copts did hear of that demanded an apology from him?
How many demonstrations peaceful or violent came of this?
How many Copts went on TV and threatened him with murder, like Amr Adeeb threatened Father Zakaria indirectly that if he set foot in Egypt he'll be "torn to pieces"??
Keep in mind that Father Zakaria never uses such vulgar expressions and emotive language like this guy. I personally have listened to and watched
70 episodes from Fr. Zakaria's program and there was never an insult directed at anyone. He merely discussed issues that are written in Islamic books...books that are not from biased sources, rather they are books that Al Azhar would use and endorse.
If you see a wrong thing and hope to tell the one who believe in this thing that it's not correct,but in the same time you want to keep his feelings,Will you leave him,saying that his feelings is more important than correcting his ideas?!!
No Mohamed, but I wouldn't antagonise him/her either. Besides, how do YOU know you aright and I'm wrong?
It's human nature for each of us to believe that they are right. Otherwise, we wouldn't carry on something that we believe is wrong. We all have values and beliefs that we are convinced are correct. That's fine. What's NOT fine is to get too comfortable and disregard other people's values and views.
We live in an age where information about just everything is just a click of a mouse away. If I wanted to learn a language, get an obscure recipe, chat to a guy from Iceland, learn about Buddhism, see Alaska I could do so right here from my own comfortable home.
What's more important than showing someone the error of THEIR ways, is showing them the goodness of yours. In the Christian faith we learn that the best way to glorify God is to show others how His love can change you. The Lord says: Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Matthew 5:13
At the end I apologize if I insulted you or your religion or if I caused harm to you,and ask Allah to forgive me if I did wrong.
No Mohamed, you don't need to apologise to us. Christianity has endured 2000 long years and it is still standing firm. As a Christian I believe that a word uttered against my faith, or an act intended to weaken my church is as much for the glory of God as a good word or a charitable act.
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.Luke 6:22-23
Mustafa:
Thank you for your well worded comment and your your good sentiment. Please allow me to discuss a couple of things you brought up.
* RE: the definition of Copt: You are correct, except we (Christian Egyptians) were always labeled Copts. Perhaps a distinction left over from the days when Christians were strictly Egyptians and Muslims strictly Arabs.
Also if we really want to live with each other in peace & harmony we should forget all the past. Then we should really think about the relationship between Muslims & Christians in Egypt.
I respectfully disagree Mustafa. By no means is it positive to dwell on the past. However, the past must be acknowledged before we can move on. If we simply forget the past, we will not learn from past mistakes. If we simply forget the past we cannot understand how the current situation precipitated.
The first thing a doctor does when attempting to diagnose or treat an illness, is to check the patient's history. What the Egyptian society is suffering these days is an illness. Before we eradicate it we need to know where it started and how it got here. Until we all, Muslims and Christians acknowledge this, it will be too difficult to heal.
Another point is the impact on the Coptic community. I'm not too familiar with Egyptian law, but here in Australia and I believe in the States they have a similar thing (Pete am I right?), we have something called "Victim Impact Statement". This is a chance given to victims of crimes (Or their families if the victim themselves is deceased as a result of the attack) to tell the court how the crime affected them. This statement is often considered by the judge when handing down the sentence. But more importantly, the victim knows their feelings are important and that they've been heard.
That's what I personally would like to see. It hurts more than you can imagine when good, level headed Muslims who don;t condone violence and are peaceful people, deny the obvious. If all you moderate Muslims came out and said "it's true, there's been injustice...let's work on it" then things would be different. What has been happening however, is that mostly, moderate Muslims lecture us on the glories of peaceful Islam and maybe sometimes they might admit there's possibly an injustice or two against some Copts by a tiny minority of Muslims who probably don't understand Islam.
The idea of not accepting conversations between us in religion really scares me out. Because let's face it, if I died while I am practicing the wrong religion then I might get damned from salvation. I always remember something my prophet said one. He said that if god has a son then I should be the 1st to believe in that. Simply this means that Muslims & Christians really should talk about what the believe. Through history there were hundreds of conversions from each side as a result to these conversations.
Religious dialogue is not a bad thing. However, when it's one sided then it IS. The comment I made to Mohamed was in light of his constant one sided argument that absolutely disregarded anything of the opposite side. Also Mohamed has constantly asked me (and Amillennialist on his blog): not to take verses out of context, and to cite neutral sources. Two requests I feel he himslef failed to carry out numerous times. I am not having a go at you Mohamed, I'm just explaining the context of my comment to Mustafa.
Christians should never accuse Muslims of kidnapping their children & force them to convert.
No they shouldn't, if it were untrue. But in many cases it is in fact the truth that girls are kidnapped and/or coerced to convert.
Mosques don't really need permission to be built. I dream that someday Churches get the same facilities like mosques
Bless you for that, so do we!
At last I have to say that none of our dreams will be accomplished if we didn't really have the well to accomplish them. Both religions believe in love & believe that god is love. We all should ask god for mercy & salvation. We all should ask god for guidance
Amen to that!! But God isn't going to do it all for us, like you said WE have to have the will to change things. I for one, add my voice to yours in prayer that God guide us all to what is right.
Now that I waffled on for so long, I probably bored you all to tears :)
Thanks again for your valuable contributions.
posted by Bent El Neel at ١:٥٣ م
17 Comments:
Hi Neferteeti,
So sorry for the delay,it's not out of ignorance.
I think that you're so wrong about saying that there is similarity between cartoons and books..
Books are not discussing Christianity as a religion from the Only God,but they are discussing faults of its followers,and if Christians see that these books are wrong,they can reply and discuss them by stronger evidences.
And I personally see that Jesus is a great Prophet sent by Allah,but he is not the God..and you can't force me to believe in your faith(and you believe in this freedom)and also I can present my opinion to people whenever I don't use bad language or insult others.
Note:I'm talking about moderate books which discuss calmly,neutral and by logic.
An example for you:
We Muslims see that God don't have any son,so Jesus is just a Prophet not son of God.
And also see that he isn't the God,as if he was the God why he was eating,drinking..and doing all what men do.God don't need any of these things.And to prove that he is the God he would not eat..etc.
And if you see that it's not logical you have to get logical and convincing proofs that he is the God.
On the other hand;if he was truly- truly the God,how can his followers follow his example?!!!!!!!
It will be so difficult and hard to follow the example of your God!!but to follow the example of a human from flesh and blood like you will be easier and can be done and more logical.
And how the Only,Merciful and Kind God be merciful with all men,and don't be like that with his son?!!
It's not merciful or equal to punish a person for faults of others!and to punish an innocent person and leave the real guilty will encourage guilty to commit more faults.
As for cartoonists;they see that Muslims are terrorists and atavisms,so I ask them to provide me with logical proofs and from Islamic texts that show clearly with no doubt that Islam orders Muslims to kill without any restrict and to restrict women..etc.
The only aim from these cartoons is to deface image of Muslims not a logical discussion.
I want to reveal a basic point;Islam means submission to Allah the Only God,and in Arabicكلمة"الإسلام"مشتقة من"يسلم"والتي تعني أن تسلم نفسك وتنصاع لأوامر آخر،وتحت الدين الإسلامي تعني أن تنصاع لأوامر الله الذي خلقك وأوجدك من العدم وأن تطيعه في جميع أوامره عالما أن في تنفيذ هذه الأوامر مصلحتك ومنفعتك ,so the name Islam isn't related to any nationality or people like Judaism and Christianity.It's because Islam is the last message to humanity from Allah,and also it's the universal message.
I want to ask a question and you should reply me(I can't force you,but just try to answer)
You don't deny that in year 611 after birth,a person appeared saying that he is sent by Allah and that he is the last Prophet and his message is the message which complete Judaism and Christianity,Right?
So we ask him how we know that you're sent from the Only God?(if we were moderate and have working minds)
He will provide a great proof that fits the greatness and special place of this message as being the last message.That proof is the Holy Qur'an..
It's greatness can be seen in more than one place..
First one is that no one since it has been revealed to Prophet Mohammad till now,could write like it,it's a truth not a lie,and all tries to write like it were so funny.
And an important point,it has been reveled in middle of Arabian society,and among sources of Arabic and Allah challenged them to come by a thing like it and no one could.
And the verse which tell you that:
"23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith." 2:(23,24)
Second one,is scientific facts mentioned in Qur'an are being proved now by scientists.It's like explanation of creation of man in womb of his mother,earth is like a ball in shape,mountains are like stakes..etc.
And by looking to the scientific level in the Prophet's era you'll know that he or any body can't write it by themselves,and if you knew that his tribe was sure that he wasn't learnt under hand of any scholar,and also he he was illiterate(don't write or read)..
so he can't write Qur'an by himself by any mean..
And if you want to read some of them.Here you're some verses:
23:(12:14),24:40,78:7,39:5
Note:Please if you read them in Arabic;make Wodo'a وضوءbefore reading as a sign of respect,the same like respecting the Holy BibleThanks
The third proof;is that there was mentioned in Qur'an some future events which happened after few years;it's defeting Roman(need a lot of explanation but not its place)
So if you thought about it,the Prophet is saying that this book is from the Only God,so as a result it can't have any wrong,so it's a big proof that it's from the Only God who know future and past to tell a thing-which was so difficult to happen this time-and this thing happened after the period which Allah said..
And it will be so silly-if Prophet Mohammad was really its author-to risk future of the Book by saying a thing that will happen in the future and don't happen..
Logical,isn't it?
At the last I want you to use your mind and just your mind.
thqnx for responding Mohamed. Don't worry about the delay. I'll get back to you soon.
Regards
Hi Mohamed
Now it's my turn to apologise for taking so long to get back to you.
I'm going to split up my response in little topics so that it's managable and not too boring :)
God Bless
“Books are not discussing Christianity as a religion from the Only God,but they are discussing faults of its followers”
But they are!! They are discussing Christianity. They are discussing the Christinaity that half the population of earth believes in.
Don’t you also think that what the cartoons depicted is what followers of Islam have shown the world over the years? Where did they get the idea about the bomb if it weren’t for the many suicide bombings and attacks on civilians in the name of Islam?
I’d like to refer you to what a good friend said on his blog:
“If the Catholic Church creates a bad image for Christ or the Church by our actions, like...say the sexual abuse issue...we should focus on fixing the issue that creates the image, not telling people they should not have the image that our inaction created.”
http://italiancatholic.blogspot.com/2006/03/un-throws-denmark-under-bus.html
“if Christians see that these books are wrong,they can reply and discuss them by stronger evidences.”
They do, to the extent that they are allowed. You know very well that honest and open religious dialogue is not possible in Egypt (Or any Islamic country) because it is a criminal offence to say anything against Islam or to preach Christianity. Such discussions can be very easily turned against the non-Muslim party and they’d be accused of the two offences. However, people do endeavor to dispell myths about Christianity as much as possible. With the advent of the internet, this has obviously become much easier.
Regarding evidence: You seem to always ask for evidence Mohamed.
What you need to understand is that the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. What I mean is, Christianity existed for centuries before Islam. You come along now and claim we somehow corrupted it…it is in fact YOU who must produce evidence to support your claim.
“but he (Jesus) is not the God..and you can't force me to believe in your faith(and you believe in this freedom)”
I wouldn’t dream of ever forcing anyone to believe in Jesus Christ. I regret that you had the impression that was my intention. I never once tried to force any of my beliefs or convictions on you, in fact I have always commended you on your zeal for your own faith.
“I can present my opinion to people whenever I don't use bad language or insult others.
Of course you can present your opinion. And I add to that, it doesn’t matter what language you use. That you choose to present yourself in a civil manner, is proof you are a good person. But if anyone chose to slander Christ (and we know that many people have done so), is a matter Christ can resolve with that person. He is a strong and indeed mighty God who doesn’t need the arms of weak men to defend His name.
I didn’t bring up the books because I wanted to express my outrage or because I’m saying they shouldn’t be published. I brought them up because I wanted to highlight the hypocricy of the situation.
Note:I'm talking about moderate books which discuss calmly,neutral and by logic.”
But I was talking about the hateful, misleading and erroneous books that fill the shelves in that center for “enlightenment”.
As for your beliefs regarding Christ’s divinity, I already knew that you don’t believe in it. You say He should have refrained from eating/drinking/etc… to prove that He is God. I don’t think that’s logical at all. How would that have made people around him feel?? Absolutely freaked out that’s how!
I feel that you have made a lot of judgements about Christianity without actually understanding what we believe. You got your information from books written to “disprove” Christianity and as such you don’t really have a balanced view.
This is what we believe (in a very very brief description):
-God created the world and all that dwells in it.
-Adam and Eve sinned against God and so they were punished by removing them from His company.
-All their offspring carried the original sin.
-Even though they deserved their punishment, God still pittied them and wanted to save them and their offspring. This is because He is a loving God and couldn’t bear to see their demise.
-Because the sin was committed by a human, a human had to pay the price. But because the sin was so great and was committed against God, someone equal to God had to pay the price.
-No one is equal to God, so God sent His Word (Jesus Christ) to the world in the form of a human.
-Then Jesus died on the cross and with His blood He washed away our sin and reconciled us with the Heavens.
As for evidence to Christ’s devinity, the Bible is filled with them. You can refer to my post thttp://neferteeti.blogspot.com/2006/03/re-muslims-comment-on-coptic-flagthe.html
For some examples.
“On the other hand;if he was truly- truly the God,how can his followers follow his example”
We don’t claim to be able to become Gods…that would be blasphemous. What we believe is that during His time on earth He set an example that is not impossible to follow. The Christian faith is a deeply spiritual faith which inspires us to better ourselves as much as we are able to.
“And how the Only,Merciful and Kind God be merciful with all men,and don't be like that with his son?!!”
He is merciful. You need to understand that it was God’s will to save us. You say His son as if He and the Son are two separate beings and one of them did the other injustice. They are ONE and the same. It isn’t like your father for example punishing you because your brother broke the window. You and your father are different individuals…God the Father and God the Son are ONE.
“leave the real guilty will encourage guilty to commit more faults.”
If you really knew the love of Christ you wouldn’t say that. You would understand, as do we, that every sin you commit is a nail driven in His wrist or a thorn into His head. His crucifixion on our behalf doesn’t encourage us to sin, rather it reminds us that the wages of sin is death and that God loved us so much that He sent His son to save us so we can have eternal life.
“As for cartoonists;they see that Muslims are terrorists and atavisms,so I ask them to provide me with logical proofs and from Islamic texts that show clearly with no doubt that Islam orders Muslims to kill without any restrict and to restrict women..”
Do you really want to go there Mohamed? What, you haven’t ever read any text in the Quran or Hadith that encouraged bloodshed?
This issue would take a long post on its own so I’ll just give you a couple of examples:
2:216 fighting is ordained for you, even though it be hateful to you; but it may well be that you hate a thing the while it is good for you, and it may well be that you love a thing the while it is bad for you: and God knows, whereas you do not know.
2:244 fight, then, in God's cause, and know that God is all-hearing, all-knowing.
9:14 fight against them! God will chastise them by your hands, and will bring disgrace upon them, and will succour you against them; and He will soothe the bosoms of those who believe,
9:29 [And] fight against those who - despite having been vouchsafed revelation [aforetime] -do not [truly] believe either in God or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them] till they [agree to] pay the exemption tax with a willing hand, after having been humbled [in war].
61:4 Verily, God loves [only] those who fight in His cause in [solid] ranks, as though they were a building firm and compact.
No matter what the background is, no matter what reason you will say inspired those verses (and many others), that’s a completely foreign concept to Christianity. We are told:
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:43-46
43 سمعتم انه قيل تحب قريبك وتبغض عدوك .
44 واما انا فاقول لكم احبوا اعداءكم .باركوا لاعنيكم .احسنوا الى مبغضيكم .وصلّوا لاجل الذين يسيئون اليكم ويطردونكم .
45 لكي تكونوا ابناء ابيكم الذي في السموات .فانه يشرق شمسه على الاشرار والصالحين ويمطر على الابرار والظالمين .
46 لانه ان احببتم الذين يحبونكم فاي اجر لكم .اليس العشارون ايضا يفعلون ذلك .
47 وان سلمتم على اخوتكم فقط فاي فضل تصنعون .أليس العشارون ايضا يفعلون هكذا
“Islam isn't related to any nationality or people like Judaism and Christianity”
Judaism may have been linked to a certain race. But Christianity certainly isn’t. Jesus came to save ALL people.
Corinthians 12:13 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit
Acts 28: 28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Romans 3:29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.
“You don't deny that in year 611 after birth,a person appeared saying that he is sent by Allah and that he is the last Prophet and his message is the message which complete Judaism and Christianity,Right?”
No I don’t deny that he existed or that he said those things. He had the right to say what he liked I suppose. But I do challenge these claims. Christianity provided the salvation humanity was waiting for, there was nothing to complete!
Now about the proofs: again we can talk for hours and discuss those. I just don’t see the point. I have read about the miracles of the Quran and I’ve also read many books that disprove those miracles and challenges the scientific facts mentioned in the Quran.
“At the last I want you to use your mind and just your mind.”
You see, that’s the trouble with this whole discussion Mohamed. True faith doesn’t start in your head then move to your heart. True faith doesn’t rely on proofs and books written by mere men that say this or challenge that.
True faith starts deep in your soul and shakes your whole being. True faith is to believe in the greatness of God’s love and accept Him. Once I did that, He opened my heart and mind to understand His word.
Mohamed, I am a scientist. By nature I am drawn to finding out facts and proving or challenging theories. Although I refuse to reduce the great Christian faith to a scientific theory, I can tell you that my mind absolutely accepts what my heart believes.
I told you this before and I’ll say it again:
I am not just Christian by birth, but by choice.
Indeed I have studied Islam at the hands of those who believe in its teachings. I’ll ask you again: have you studied Christianity as we believe it?
I’m not going to ask you to just your mind, rather I invite you to let your heart and soul join your mind.
Peace be with you
Thanks for your splitted and managable reply:)
Just need some time because of being busy,
Hi Neferteeti,
Sorry in advance for long comment.
As for the first point,I'll explain it more:Muslims have a description of Christianity.Muslims see Christians of these days don't follow this description,so they see that what Christians do is wrong,so they discuss faults of Christians which aren't as description of Christianity they have in Qur'an.Clear now?
And why you say that half of population believe in it?If it was really the fact,so I know that an ardhothox Church don't admit that a protestant Church is Christian!!
And as for the image of a religion taken from its followers.The image of Muslims around the world is generally bad,and I know that.But why this image is taken about Muslims,Is this because Muslims are really bad,or What?
No,it is a well known information that there is no perfect society or by another word a society without fault and this is in every society,and also in Islamic society.And beside that Media plays a very important role in the inflation of this image.So you can hardly find a fair person who search for the true image of Muslims taken from Qur'an and Sunna and true application of them,because they are affected by Media.And what about Istishhadiya bombs specially in Palastine against Israel it's because they are under war and don't have another way to fight the enemy.وعلى رأي القائل:ما الذي حملك على المر؟قال:الأمر منه.
And I remembered now a previous word from you..it was about clips which show some persons slaying a man and shouting 'Allah Akbar'..This isn't Islam,and you studied it under hands of who believe in it and should know that,Islam is the most equal,just and merciful religion.And if representing a religion is by that,so if I want to deface a religion which I don't believe in,so I simply will turn on my camera and say words which its followers say and do the worst thing can be done.
And to say that there is no good deeds by Muslims nowadays it will be so unfair.But Media inflate the bad deed,and don't with good deeds.
Or any Islamic country
This is a big issue.Islam encourages Dialogue and respect the Other Opinion,it's a fact taken from a lot of verses.And here you're some examples:
*"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." 16:125
Telling the other opinion in a lot of places:
*They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 19:88
*"And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening." 25:5
*"When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, they say, "This is only a man who wishes to hinder you from the (worship) which your fathers practised." And they say, "This is only a falsehood invented!" and the Unbelievers say of the Truth when it comes to them, "This is nothing but evident magic!" 34:43
*The Jews say: "(Allah)'s hand is tied up...." 5:64
And Allah told us about athiests to tell them that:" 1. Say : O ye that reject Faith! 2. I worship not that which ye worship, 3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, 5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 6. To you be your Way, and to me mine. " 109
But as for you-people of the book-He told us:"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book…" 29:46
I didn't took the impression that you want to force me to believe in Jesus the same way you believe(as being your god)but I said that you believe in this freedom..so I think that I was so clear.
'I don’t think that’s logical at all.'..
God as man believe is the most powerful and there is no thing like him…so as a result,He don't have to eat or drink like man do.That's logical.And in Qur'an there is a story with Abraham..it's:" 26. Then he turned quickly to his household, brought out a fatted calf, 27. And placed it before them.. he said, "Will ye not eat?" 28. (When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge." 51:(26:28)
So Abraham invited Angels-which were in the picture of men-to eat,but as being angels they don't eat,so he became afraid from them,but when he knew that they are angels he became calm.
So that is with angels what about the god!!!He could simply tell them that he is the god so he won't eat or drink or act like they do.
And therte is another story when messengers of Allah came to a people so they said:"33.And the chiefs of his people, who disbelieved and denied the Meeting in the Hereafter, and on whom We had bestowed the good things of this life, said: "He is no more than a man like yourselves: he eats of that of which ye eat, and drinks of what ye drink. 34. "If ye obey a man like yourselves, behold, it is certain ye will be lost." 23:(33-34) So if Jesus still in his divine picture so it will be more convincing to them.
And on the other hand;a king don't go to his people by himself and lead them,but he send his messengers to represent him and speak with his name.
And a last word about Books..not because the book opposites your belief so it must be offensive,but when it use good language and follow the calm way…so it isn't offensive.This is the measure.
Your brief description is very good and organized,but I have some notes and questions about it:
*In the first and the second point we are approved.
*How I carry the sin of my grandfather whatever the sin was big or whatever towards whom?!!!!!It's not fair at all!!!If you said about god and his son punishing him for our sins that it's because it's not like human father and his son,and I'm not convinced..so what about us?!!!!Is because you're son of a killer so you must be punished for his crime?!!!!And I heard a thing similar to that about the Church from mouth of a father that it considered Jewish innocent from the blood of Jesus,and he explained that Jewish of these days are the innocent but Jewish of Jesus era are guilty,so why the contradiction?!!!!
*How the god die?!!!!As you 're saying that he died to wash our sins!!!or he eat and drink and live and die and not a human?!!!!
*How he wash my sins as being Muslim however I don't believe in him as being god?!!
*What about daily sins which man commit,it's against God also.How can it be washed out and forgived?!!!!
*I don't understand what was forgived by Jesus blood;Is it original sin of Adam and Eve,or our daily sins?!!!
If you don't mind,I'd like to hear more about your beliefs..specially about your look for God,and when you talk about father and son do you say father punish son,or god punished himself?I really want to know,and also I don't understand why we always hear from Christians the word محبة and in English you're saying 'Love of Christ',and what is it's place in your beliefs…..Thanks in advance.
'No matter what the background is, no matter what reason…'
:) So what?!!
At the first they are 5 examples not 2 :).Verses you mentioned are talking about special events,or self-defense and Allah put a big rule for us in Qur'an,it's "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." 2:190 and after this rule Allah don't have to mention it in every verse but He let it for our intelligence.And notice that Allah said"..God loves [only] those who fight in His cause.."and in the same time said".. but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.."..It was so clear,but enemies of Islam want to fight against it and claim that it's religion of terrorism and deface it…etc,
and notice that Allah told us that Christians not the enemy of us in this verse "...and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians".." 5:82,
and another rule was "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."60:8,and what about Jizyah it's simply because they live in the country,so it's because we defend the country instead of them,and if they defended with Muslims so they don't pay it,and also if they aren't able to pay it they don't pay it but instead of that they are paid from Bait Al-Mal,and this is what I was talking about in previous messages..it's that Fiqh is taken beside Islamic texts,and notice that Muslims themselves pay Zakat.
Note:When I say verses,I mean translation of them.
And here you're two texts from Torah which is really terroristic texts..it's:
"حين تقترب من مدينة لكي تحاربها استدعها إلى الصلح،فإن أجابتك إلى الصلح وفتحت لك فكل الشعب الموجود فيها يكون لك للتسخير ويستبعد لك.وإذا دفعها الرب إليك فاضرب جميع ذكورها بحد السيف"سفر التثنية-الاصحاح20: 5-10
"وأما مدن هؤلاء الشعوب التي يعطيك الرب إلهك نصيبا فلا تستبق منها نسمة ما بل تحرمها تحريما"سفر التثنية-الاصحاح 20: 16-17
And this is a big proof about falsifying Torah,as Allah won't order these terroristic deeds.
Do you mean by loving your enemy is that like Israel killing your Christian brothers in Palastine and you go to Israel and tell it that you love it and cooperate with it in economy for example?!!
Or mean that when an enemy go into your town refusing any peace to greet him and don't fight him because you love him!!!!
In Islam we really fight against who fight us-and it's a right for any people-but we are ordered not to kill without any restrict but not to kill even a tree or an animal,and not to kill children,women and monastics..
I had a question about the text from Holy Bible you mentioned:
What means the word' ابناء ابيكم الذي في السموات '?And why 'sons'?!!
Ok,if you're (do) challenging these proofs,notice that till now you didn't do that.
You just said that there is books which 'disprove those miracles and challenges the scientific facts mentioned in the Quran.'..so I think that they have two ways:
First:to say that these facts aren't mentioned in Qur'an,but they can't because it's really mentioned.
Second:to claim that embryo isn't created by the way was mentioned in Qur'an and then proved by modern science after about 1400 years,or that mounts aren't like pegs as science proved,or that earth isn't like a ball as a little child know…by another word to say that what was proved by science is false!!and also this is immposible.
And in the same time you didn't address the other proofs,however you said that I should address all what you say:).
Any way,I'm waiting for more explaination in this point.
And there is more than one aim for scientific facts told in Qur'an:
-for non-Muslims to think that Prophet Mohammed couldn't by any mean knew these facts by his own,so this book must be revealed from the Only God not written by humans.
-for Muslims to make sure that they are on the right path.
As for your question,No,I didn't study Christianity as you believe it,and this what I hope to do with you.
Thanks,and take all your time,
I have a thing that I forgot to say..
How do you pray for your enemies however after their death they will be punished?
Please send me an e-mail after replying,Thanks,
Mohammed:
That's where the doctrine of Purgatory comes in. Since it's never up to us to judge people's souls we pray that they might be found in an intermediate state where their leftover sins (venial) are purged. How long that takes, no one knows but offering prayers to them helps
Also that's also the toughest Christian virtue to practice: mercy and the ability to forgive. Mind you, the perpetrator has to ask for forgiveness or repent. If he doesn't than no forgiveness can occur. Hell is the conscious desire to separate oneself from God's grace
xavier
Mohamed;
As i said to you in my email, time constraints prevent me from addressing your whole comment. Howevr I wanted to say something about your final comment:
How do you pray for your enemies however after their death they will be punished?
Punished by whom? God? Why should that prevent me from praying for them or belittle my prayer's worth? We pray for others, our enemies and those who harm us included, so that God may forgive them and show them the light. We pray for everyone's salvation. If however, people do not accept salvation, then God will deal with them, not us mere mortals.
The business of punishment and forgiveness is God's and God's alone. As human beings we can only:
1) Show others the way of the Lord by setting a good example
2) Pray that others may accept God and His commandements and attain eternal life through the Salvation He gave us.
إرسال تعليق
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