Coptic Flag
I saw this on the Free Copts blog and absolutely loved it. Click on link in the post's title to see the explanation of the colors and symbols.
And before anyone uses this to accuse us of wanting a separate Coptic country in Egypt, I'd like to say that's never been our intention. We wouldn't dream of splitting Egypt up. After all, it was our ancestor the great king Mina who unified it thousands of years ago.
Having a flag doesn't always mean having a separate country. In Australia, the Aboriginal community have a flag, but we are all Australian and living in one country.
Free Copts have done a marvellous job with this flag.
And before anyone uses this to accuse us of wanting a separate Coptic country in Egypt, I'd like to say that's never been our intention. We wouldn't dream of splitting Egypt up. After all, it was our ancestor the great king Mina who unified it thousands of years ago.
Having a flag doesn't always mean having a separate country. In Australia, the Aboriginal community have a flag, but we are all Australian and living in one country.
Free Copts have done a marvellous job with this flag.
posted by Bent El Neel at ٣:٥٠ م
27 Comments:
Very good and informative post! Didn't know we had our own flag? Thanks
"A separate Coptic state in Egypt" is an illogical statement. Remember: "...In fact Copt literally translates into Egyptian..."
I have commented with some ideas on the post of the flag whchi I'd like to know what you think about them. (and in Arabic too)
Regards from a Coptic non-Christian.
Nerferteeti, Hi, I am Muslim.
Like everybody, I have a crush on the Egyptian History. I read the little something about you and I was tempted to know more.
On searching the web for the Queen you are named after, I discovered two points :
1- Her name is misspelled! It is Nefertiti
2- Little is known about the origins of Nefertiti but it seems unlikely that she was of royal blood. Interesting! That of course unlike Cleo with the known Greek descent.
Here are some links to her biography :
http://www.akhet.co.uk/nefertit.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/who/nefertit.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefertiti
King Mina “??!!” didn’t find his name among the ancient Egyptian kings. But … I searched with the sense of the king who unified Upper and Lower Egypt into a single kingdom and there he was “Menes”, doubted as King “Narmer” or King “Aha”. He is a king of the 1st Dynasty in Egypt.
Here are some links to this great king’s biography:
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/history/people/menes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menes
If the basic historical information and facts bear some differences, is the written as “facts” in all the other articles on this blog about the history of Muslims with the Copts plus the current events in Egypt true ??
I am not saying that you are intentionally misleading the readers, I just say that looks like you add your own opinions and emotions in there. Will try to find links to books about Muslims when they first occupied Egypt and post it for all. Personally, as I know Islam very well, the detailed historical stories does not in any way match with the Islamic trends, spirit, teaches and/or published neutral history.
And I loved the flag, it is colorful and it is your right to have a flag that is not meant as political as I checked the Egyptian flag http://www.united-states-flag.com/world-egypt.html and it is different proving your intention to only have this flag as for example a league has one!!! And if the Coptic Muslims don’t like it, they can just have a flag for Coptic Muslims! Aren’t all those who live in Egypt are Coptic following the linguistic meaning of the word “Egypt”?
You might ask yourself, what do I got to do with the Muslims/Coptic thing?? Islamic history which is based on Islam beliefs and teaches belongs to every and each Muslim who has the right to correct information if was falsely published. I didn’t say of course that You have posted incorrect information, I just said that I have the right to check it as I don’t like what happened there as per your stories.
nefertiti
i'm here on your blog after closing the doors of enough blog....anyway i'm happy to be here..
i see muslim too....hello muslim...you are the best...i guess that you was the reason of closing the comments on enough blog...because you ignored mikel and then he got jelious from Mario:)))))
about coptic muslims...you are right muslim...i'm an egyptian...i don't know whether my roots were coptics or arab .....
about the flag...tell me nefertiti is it the start for having a coptic country to be separtated from egypt.....i know and 4sure read about that american and coptic plans to seperate upper egypt to be a coptic country.....
Sara dear .. Hello back to you and to Neferteeti and all as well …
Not to “mislead” the idea behind Mikkel’s site non-respond , here are his own words commenting on Enough on March 2nd 2006
http://enough.typepad.com/enough/2006/03/commenting_on_e_1.html
Quote
I'm so tired of the same 5 people arguing back and forth in the comments section, Sisyfos'ing their way to convincing the other of their viewpoints on islam, that from here on commenting is restricted!
Comments, it be negative or positive, to me as a person, the blog and it's posts, are allowed and will be published after i manually allow them.
Comments that add new material to the discussion will largely be allowed.
Comments to other comments or commenters will largely be deleted by me and thus not even published at all.
Unquote
From the above you can see that Mikkel didn’t close the Comments on Enough. You made unjust to Mikkel dear Sara! You owe him an apology.
What happened is that Mikkel is practicing a kind of control on the comments of the commenting persons whom he allowed earlier! The Freedom of Speech on that site is now restricted to the personal view of Mikkel alone, allowing that goes with his common sense and deleting those comments which will not support the motive behind the idea of Enough blog! (Speech controlled site : http://enough.typepad.com/enough/2006/01/letter_to_musli.html on January 30 2006)
Mikkel is free … Muslims are not! That’s the difference.
No comment. Let’s see if Neferteeti is any different.
PS : communicating is a tool to problems solving. We need to communicate.
Neferteeti, I hope you allow me to post my comments on your last arguement with Nabeeh on Enough as Mikkel apparently has largely deleted it several times
Quote
I am Muslim .. and my God is "Allah" .. the God of everyone .. ordered me to only Worship one God and that is "Allah"
In Judaism.. in the Ten Commandments the following was also told :
Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6): You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
If Islam and Judaism state clearly the Oneness of Allah ..
How can Christianity which is the second volume of the same book says otherwise.
The point in trying to justify trinity by referring all to under One Allah, is just a go around the fact, because if they are one at the end of the day .. so how they are a Father and a Son even if we accepted the Holly Spirit an intangible part of the trinity ... !!!
Is any of us; He and his father ONE??!! No, even the idea is not supported by the logical practice, even if the justification is that the son is a part of the spirit of the God in flesh. We all are a part of our mother’s and father’s, yet, we are not all ONE.
And Nabeeh, I don’t agree with this statement of yours, also with all due respect, quote” unless you are convinced that Christianity has been corrupted then why are you a Muslim. Why did god send another messenger” Unquote.
Allah almighty sent Muhammad PBUH as the final Prophet to complete the religion that has been sent in volumes Judaism, Christianity then Islam. That religion needed to be completed and prove is that they all allow and forbids the same things with more aspects to life way of living in Islam.
Not all Christians are disbelievers or imitate disbelievers; there are those unifiers who go with the correct teaches and they are, to us, the People of the book and they have rights on the Muslims that is well know to all of us as Muslims. Same goes for the Jews with the same case.
For disbelievers and atheists, Allah also in Quran has drawn to us the basic lines in our relationship with them and how to treat them.
But what I can see here is that we are depriving from the main issue of this blog “Danes and other Europeans countries publishing the Cartoons and the Muslims’ resent toward this” ..
See this Command off the Ten Commandments also :
Third Commandment (Exodus 20:7): You shall not take the name of the Lord Your God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.
Same case here, if Judaism and Islam order us to glorify the Lords “Allah”’s name and not to take him in vain which include but not limited to “valueless, pointless, worthless … etc. acts”, then certainly Christianity does not allow this. Allah’s messengers have been praised and valued by Allah in all religions. Allah wouldn’t accept their names to be taken in vain!!
That was to note.
Uquote
Thanks dear. Will consider that Enough of Enough. Will be back on the Muslims/Coptic history subject next time.
welcome Alif, Muslim and Sara. As you have noted, i've been away for a while. I'll try to address your comments bit by bit.
Alif; i was only able to read your english comment. Don;t know why I couldn't view the arabic version. Anyway, opinion noted! I just think you are being a bit unfair to claim Copts (Christians) don't like the Egyptian flag. Where did u get that idea? Many Christians died protecting Egypt and raisnig that very flag over Sinai soil along with their Muslim compattriots...if any Egyptian, Muslim or Christian suggested they don't like tthe Egyptian flag that would be an insult to all those soldiers memory.
Like I said it is only a symbol like the Aboriginal flag, the Arab league's flag etc.
Ben ElNeel,
Thank you for your interested.
You got me completly wrong.
I would never say something such as "Christians don't love the flag". What do you think of me! :)
Please take your time to read again when you have the time.
Among what I said is that I, among other Egptians, am not very fund of the current Egyptian flag, design wise, that is.
As for Arabic, try changing the encoding in your browser's "view" to UTF-8.
Regards,
Alif
OK I understand you now. Sorry for the misunderstanding :) It's hard to focus sometimes when you have a two year old running around you.
I respect your opinion and I'd like to tell you that the fact we are called Copts is not intended to separate ourselves "racially". We all know that there's been so many races coming in and out of Egypt over thousands of years. I'd say that we (Christian Egyptians) are still labelled as Copts, perhaps because when the Arabs first lived there, there was a clear separation between the Egyptian Christians and the Muslim Arabas...it must've just stuck since. You'll find also that the only place you hear the Coptic language now is inside our Orthodox churches.
In my opinion, it was the Arab invasion of Egypt that introduced this sense of separation. The Coptic language was wiped out and the Christians of Egypt were humiliated for their beliefs. As a persecuted group, they stuck together and found solace in their faith and church, which was the only place their old language and their practices were protected.
I know you may not believe, or want to believe that the Christians of Egypt were ever, or are now persecuted...but that's another point alltogether.
Thanx again for your comments and God bless you.
Muslim,
Good to see u here.
re: Queen Nefertiti or Neferteeti: the spelling of the name wasn't important to me....i just like the way it looks this way that's all. There's no reason behind it or any significance to it.
As for her descent, that also doesn't matter to me. She was an Egyptian queen and I like the meaning of her name (The Beautiful One has Arrived)
As for King Mina...that's how we learn his name in Egypt "Al Malik Mina Mowahid Al Qottrein"
As for my humble self, I do indeed let my emotions and opinions show on various subjects. I never claimed to be a news service, nor am I a journalist. This is just my blog where I get to say what I feel, think and believe. You are right, I don't want to mislead anyone. If any reader wants to check up on what I say the internet is filled with references.
Muslim,
You also say: "the detailed historical stories does not in any way match with the Islamic trends, spirit, teaches and/or published neutral history."
The Crusades contradict every word in the Bible but they did happen.
The Inquisition is abhorrent and has nothing to do with Christianity, but it happened.
Every day people commit crimes which are against the law...but they do happen.
Sara
Welcome, good to see u here too.
Re: separate Coptic state:
I don't know where you get this idea. Kindly provide a reference to any Copt who stated this claim.
Egypt is not a cake we're going to cut up in pieces. Copts live in every inch of Egypt and we never thought of uprooting ourselves to move into a separate state. Where would that be by the way? Would we live in the South or North? West or East? It's a ridiculous notion invented by the Muslim Brotherhood back in Sadat's days to deepen the chasm between Muslims and Christians.
Now regarding Mikkel's blog:
A blog, anyone's blog including this one, is just a corner in the vast cyberspace. A soap box where you can shout out your personal views and thoughts. People walk past and they may stop to listen. Some of those who stop may coment, some may walk away again. Some would agree some would disagree.
What happened in Mikkel's blog was that the people who stopped to listen started to argue with each other about things the blog host wasn't interested in and they were subjects irrelevant to the actual purpose of the blog. He has the right to say hey, enough of that. This isn't what I want to discuss here. (Imagine you write a theater play and people in the audience start to act out other plays while you're up on the stage.)
A blog isn't a state and a blog host isn't a state leader who is responsible to guaratentee freedom of speech to all those who choose to drop by.
Muslim, like you said communication is a key tool to solving problems. I'd add to that, relevant communication...the right place and right time count, so does the manner in which we communicate.
As you can see I don't moderate comments. I don't need to. Anyone can say what they like. If it's an intelligent discussion communicated with respect that's great...we all learn together. If they just spout foolish blather, they'll be condemned by their own words. But that's the way I operate and it's not right or wrong...it's just me.
Finally, the comment you re-posted here is welcome. However I'd like to respond to that in a separate post.
Hope you stick around and we can continue this discussion later.
Hi all ...
Thanks Neferteeti for answering with due attention.
My post is on "RE: Muslim's comment on "Coptic Flag"...The Holy Trinity"
I guess this page is for the Coptic flag .. and as a final comment by me on that (should you allow me to); Ladies and gentlemen, congratualtions on the flag if you really like it that much and if it gives you mental support and hapiness.
neferteeti
you said
quote
Re: separate Coptic state:
I don't know where you get this idea. Kindly provide a reference to any Copt who stated this claim.
quote
i wonder that you asked for a reference???
aren't you an egyptian who lived for a long time in egypt???
never heard about it???!!!
so, you'll never been here...because it is all over you...known for all!!
what type of reference you want?
egyptian muslim?
egyptian coptic?
isreali?
which one you'll believe?
Any way, let's start with the oldest one ...the isreali one....
an article, titled "A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s," was published last Februrary in Hebrew in a journal called Kivunim, or Directions, which is sponsored by the World Zionist Organization.-originally published in 1982-
it was a long article talking about the whole arab world...let's pick what we want now...the other might be disscussed later..
it said about coptic and egypt:
"Egypt will be torn by friction between its Sunni Moslem majority and what Mr. Yinon estimates are seven million Egyptian Coptic Christians. "The vision of a Christian Coptic State in upper(southern) Egypt alongside a number of weak states with very localized power . . . seems inevitable in the long run"
URLS:
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/ch12.htm
http://www.ansab-online.com/phpBB2/showthread.php?t=4635
i'll imagine that you will reply that this is an isreali thought, not an coptic one....
you are right, but let's see what is the copts say now...
a letter that started with:
US Copts Association: Write to the President
A message from Michael Meunier, president of the US Copts Association:
The Honorable George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20500
December 7, 2004
Dear Mr. President:
As an American citizen [if applicable: of Coptic descent]........
till the letter ends with
"In light of the United States’ political and financial support of Egypt, and American efforts for freedom and democracy in the Middle East, I respectfully request that you intervene with President Mubarak on behalf of the Christian minority’s plea for protection.
Sincerely,
Mr/Ms/Dr NAME HERE "
let's recall what you said to me at enough blog:
quote
And so you know, Copts never asked to stop the aid. They asked that how the aid is spent be monitored to make sure it goes
where it is needed, and not in the bellies of corrupt government people. They said maybe US should ensure the money is spent to educate people and help eliminate fundamentalists.
Copts only see God as their refuge. We don't rely on the hands of men.
quote
that is opposite for what they asked neferteeti...they are asking for Coptic Protection, that's what i meant by putting them with the american iraqi immiragnts in the same corner.....both wants the INTERFERENCE....
as an egptian....war is the american interference i know in the middle east ...especially when it comes to the governments...
about a muslim egyptian view:
it is not about the christians...but it is about the isreali who is using the egyptian christians as an element in distroying peace in egypt locally...and honestly i see egyptian christians trying to stop the abuse of christian muslim relations in egypt..
but on the other hand there are many others helping in that isreali plan to gain personal benifits....
that is the summary...to read it in detail..read this url
http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=294&CID=12...read"المصريون في مهب الريح" specially the first point."أولًا: ورقة الأقباط وآمالهم في إنشاء دولة مسيحية "
about my personal point of view...i'll write it later because i'm so so sleepy right now...
to be continued.....
Hi Sara
Your statement was clear: "i know and 4sure read about that american and coptic plans to seperate upper egypt to be a coptic country....."
The evidence you provided fails to prove your point.
1) What an Israeli newspaper decides to speculate regarding Egypt's future is not our responsibility. The writer states that the statement is speculation and it never claimed to express the desire of the Copts.
2)The letter you posted here from Copts/Americans has absolutely nothing to do with a separate state.
Let me make it clear to you Sara:
Egypt, all of Egypt, is our home as much as it is the home to our Muslim compatriots. Every tiny inch of it, every spec of dust, every monument, every bit of land along our Nile, every green field and hot sandy desert. The North and the South...the West and the East.
No Copt I have ever spoken to (and believe I have spoken to many) ever agreed to this ridiculous notion of a separate Coptic state. They are all outraged by the suggestion.
Back in the late 70s, early 80's a brilliant idea occured to extremist Muslims:
We'll tell everyone that the Copts are storing weapons in their monasteries and churches. They're going to use them to fight Muslims and take a separate state for themselves.
Sounds like such a childish, absurds idea but sadly it obviously worked!!
Let me ask you Sara:
If we the Copts wanted to have an independant state for ourselves since the early 80's, why hasn't it happened yet??? If we were really asking America to fight for us all this time, how come they haven't?
Go back a little Sara and look up a Coptic Pope called Pope Boutros (he was the 109th pope). When the Russian Tsar offered the Pope protection for the Copts from persecution, Pope Boutros said to him: نحن في حمى من لا يموت
We are protected by He who does not die!
That's what we believe and that's why we'll never use force to get our rights, nor will we want anyone to use force on our behalf.
Hope you had a peaceful sleep. God Bless you.
Sara Dear
Again, you linked an article that is not the voice of a Coptic Christian expressing desire to have a separate state. The article listed in al eman.com is nothing but speculation on behalf of the writer that the Copts have stocked weapons and want an independant state. Obviously another pooor victim to that ridiculous idea propagated by Islamists themselves.
For those who don't read Arabic, I'll be discussing specific statements in the article in a post.
Hi Pete
The URL shows just fine. Thanx so much for that valuable link. That page links to the Synaxarium which is lists a wealth of history of the Coptic church and Her martyrs.
Also on that page you find the Story of St Sydhom Bishay whose blessed head I have had the honour of looking upon in Demiat years ago. His is a story that (among many others) illustrates perfectly the type of persecution Christians have suffered throughout the last 1400 years.
Thanx again Pete for teh link :)
hi neferteeti
i read your comment which as a conclusion....
you see that articles isn't a clue for that plan....i agree with you...but i drove those links to you not as an evidence for a fact but as an evidence for what i said to you in my previous post...i thought you was wondered from my talk...i thought you were hearing it for the first time in your life!!
there is no official statment from a coptic source with that seperation...but also there is no official statment from the coptic chirch with copts perscuation...
so as long as we talk in an offical way
also there is no official statment that the 1.3 billion are criminals and murders...
if you want official..so let it be..be sure that i know better than you what is going on with copts here in egypt....they are the richest by official statment in country that suffers econmically...
officialy you are 7% from the total poulation, but you are talking as 10%....
do you know why because you are a real minority in our country egypt
you are asking for jobs through your church bcause of perscuation....forgetting that egypt is in a high rank in the world unemployment...official staments will be totally against you...
Sara
Thanks for your response.
* i thought you were hearing it for the first time in your life!!
No I did hear about it before. Like I said rumors about the weapons stached in our churches and our separate state surfaced in Sadat's days. Pope Shenouda dismissed these rumors on many occasions. And as you mentioned, no Copt ever stated that this is our intention.
* but also there is no official statment from the coptic chirch with copts perscuation...
1) The persecution is a human rights issue. It just happens to be linked to the persecuted party's faith in this case. The church is our spiritual leadership, they aren't a political entity.
2) The pope has indicated on many occasions, within Egypt and outside of it, that the Copts in fact do face "difficulties" as a result of their faith.
* also there is no official statment that the 1.3 billion are criminals and murders...
If by 1.3 billion you mean the Muslim population of the world, nobody said that. I never implied that all Muslims are murderers and criminals. You can't deny that there are groups of Muslims who do commit crimes in the name of Islam though. They exist in Egypt and all over the world.
I know they don;t represent ALL Muslims, but it seems that even though they are a minority, the majority are unable to contain them....which is baffling in itself but that's not the point.
POint is, I would never and have never claimed that all Muslims are criminals.
* officialy you are 7% from the total poulation, but you are talking as 10%....
I don't see what the numbers have anything to do with it. Is it acceptable to abuse us because we're only 7% and not 10%?? What's the percentage at which we can gain our basic rights??
The number of Muslims in Denmark is a few hundred thousands only. Yet when they felt that they were being unfairly treated, the whole Muslim population in the world protested it.
* do you know why because you are a real minority in our country egypt
Yes we know we are a minority, but that makes it worse. It's a big bully pushing around someone just because they're smaller. Abusing a minority is the worst kinds of cowardice.
*you are asking for jobs through your church bcause of perscuation..
Like I said, the Coptic church is only spiritual leadership and not a political entity. True, some Christians go to their priest or bishop for help finding jobs, but that's because they feel they have nowhere else to go.
* forgetting that egypt is in a high rank in the world unemployment...official staments will be totally against you...
No we don't forget that a great number of Egyptians are suffering from unemployment. And it is in our interest that ALL Egyptians have a real opportunity at a good education and good job prospects. It's the only way this wave of religious strife will end. Extremists prey on young people who have lost hope in their future and lost trust in their government. If this is eliminated, maybe we can all indeed live together in peace.
Dear Sara
Please refer to my post "Why an independant Coptic state is simply NOT an option" dated 10.03.06 for more on this topic.
I shoudl also thank you for bringing up the issue. I have learnt a great deal through researching this topic.
I really like the Idea, but not really the flag, I wandered if something more "Egyptian "could be done, the coat of armes it's too european oriented to me, something more african should be on it. The Meanings are wonderfull.
Hotep.
Hi Neferteeti nice Blog
Have you seen the beautiful Holy Trinity Flag. It reminds us of the Trinity God of the Bible Father/Son/Holy Spirit. It was created by a former Texas atheist who became a Christian after an encounter with the living God. May I send you a picture of it?
There is no other flag like it in the world.
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