الأربعاء، أغسطس 16، 2006

Reflections on Hani Sarofim's Murder

Predictably, my last post on Hani Sarofim's murder attracted many comments. There were some that I attempted to answer in the comment section but found that it would take so much space, besides they raised important points that I needed to respond to. So I preferred to post it in a separate post.

I'll start by addressing Mohammed's comment, because I feel it represents the views of many Muslims; particularly Egyptian Muslims, on the issue.

With all my respect to Hani,but he wasn't effective in his family to make the officer cares to force him.

I'm sorry mate, i don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain it?

If you had read the statement released by his familyyou would see the following:

"Hani was supposed to be on an official vacation of eight days, which would end on July 30th 2006. He also had two permissions for one other vacation, which would have finished on August 13th 2006"
"كان باجازتة الرسمية ثمانية ايام نهايتها فى 30-7-2006 وعمل تصريحين باجازة ثانية من 4-8-2006 حتى 13-8-2006 "

Now don't you think this is suspicious? What kind of officer gets a 8 day break, returns to service only to get another break within a week? Why was there a permission issued for his holiday...and not one but two???

His superiour officer was up to no good no matter what his motivation was.


he don't understand Islam,because Islam so clearly says that:"Let there be no compulsion in religion

As I said before, the presence of a certain law or teaching doesn't mean everyone will follow it.

No faith and no book in the history of all humanity have more teachings about love, forgiveness, sacrifice, tolerance and humility than Christianity and the Holy Bible...
Does this mean no Christian ever does wrong?
Does this mean we are all angels?

of course not!

The point is Mohammed, you, and undoubtedly many Muslims like your good self, are more concerned with the "image" of Islam than they are with the victims that fall in Islam's name on a daily basis everywhere around the world.

I am not a Muslim...I don't know where the problem is. Is it in Islam's teachings or in its followers interpretation?
That should be something all moderate and good Muslims get together and sort out.

I am however, a Copt...my mother is Egypt and my Father is Jesus Christ. I do care that my brothers and sisters are being persecuted and victimised every day. I do care about seeking and communicating with good people from whatever faith who can look to their conscience and try to understand...to correct whats going on, each in their own way.

*It wasn't appropriate at all to put this picture on this website..If it wasn't for feelings of lived people,so for Hani(If it was his body)

No? Would you say the same to the Arab media that continuously plaster images of injured, dead, bleeding and disfigured Palestinians and Iraqis (especially children)...at all hours exposing young children to these horriffic images on televisions, newspapers and magazines?????

At least I put a warning that the images are very disturbing...if people don't wish to view them...they didn't have to.

Finally, it is quite obvious you don't believe the events took place, and you are even doubting that this is his body.

That's fine...you have the right to your views. I assure you this is not a fabrication and that there are evidence to this effect. The truth will come out...but all in good time. For now, lets see what the investigation brings.

Xavier;

Thanks for your comment Xavier.

Of course the officer will just get a slap on the wrist and he'll be transferred to another command.

I'm afraid you're overly optimistic about this Xavier!!! I don't even think the officer will get 2 hours detention!!

Red,

did anyone realize that if the matter is "seriously" investigated that there would only be one outcome.... the "culprits" are insane

Again, see my comment to Xavier...even insanity is an optimistic outcome here. Remember...this is the millitary...not some schmuck wandering the streets wih a sword.

David

As always, you hit the nail on the head. Nothing but the word of God could even begin to provide comfort in a situation like this.

Marc

Long time no see...great to see you but not so great circumstances.

Everyone is involved whether they like it or not.

Unfortunately, you are correct. Most victims are those who realy have no vested interest...unfair but true.

Desmond

Excellent point. I second your call for prayer for the perpetrators. This is indeed what our faith is all about.

Eyewitness

Yes, I also hope its not true...but sadly I'm confident it is. Like I said, all in good time.

Last but not least...Pete and Cminor

Great to hear from you as always...it's an honour to have you along on this journey.

To the Anonymous commentors

Thank you all for commenting.

Please see my response to an earlier comment about why this is not more widely broadcast.

Everyone, please remember that this young man met a horrible end. No matter what your creed, race or belief...whether you believe the events or not...humanity says that we wish him eternal rest and wish his family comfort in their grief.

39 Comments:

Anonymous Desmond said...

Amen. As we put it in Filipino "pagpalain nawa" or "may God bless all those who suffer in His name."

أغسطس 16, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

I'd recommend stony silence for Joseph should he come back. He reads like a nutjob. Did you notice the admonition to 'confess...to Joseph Smith?' I didn't realize old Joe was God now! Anyway, I thought the whole raison d'etre of Mormonism was to get as many folks into heaven as possible via proxy baptism!

We've know quite a few Mormons but none of this ilk! I'll have to ask about this one. My daughter recently had some theological discussions with a Mormon friend. I'll see what she can find out.

I'll be by later--gotta look up a few things.

أغسطس 17, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

"Last but not least...Pete and Cminor

Great to hear from you as always...it's an honour to have you along on this journey."

Lol. Honor to have ME here?? C'mon ya Bent...Could you be any sweeter??

I LOVE your blog and I LOVE your message. I really hope one day I get to meet you Neferteeti. I plan on visiting Australia before I die and when I do I'm gonna look you up :)

And if you ever come to the States you have to stop by Chicago. You and your family have a place to stay if you ever come to visit! God bless you bent!

And as far as that goof joseph...

Let's see, our faith comes from St. Mark the author of one of the Gospels. From him spread the Good News all over Egypt.

His faith comes down from Joe Smith, yeah, that's right, some 19th century guy who came down on a space ship or something...

Enough said.

I wouldn't normally be so harsh but his comment on poor Hani's soul made me want to vomit all over him.

أغسطس 17, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Easy, Peter, the internet is full of crazies. Would you engage this person in an argument if he approached you on the street, filthy and pushing his worldly goods in a shopping cart?
I checked and found out a few things. Based on what I've been told, mainstream Mormon doctrine isn't much for burning people in Hell--only those who know the truth to be the truth and reject it go there. (As far as they are concerned, they are the truth; they just don't think God punishes people for ignorance.) Mainstream Mormonism also doesn't equate Joseph Smith with God, as far as I know, or 'confess' to him. My daughter's friend is quick to draw a line between two groups among the LDS--the 'religious' Mormons and the 'cultural' Mormons. My impression is that the 'cultural' type is heavy on ideology but light on practice. Think Church of Rome v. SSPX, or one of those other schismatic groups.
If this Joseph is a Mormon (and I'm not absolutely certain, his link notwithstanding, that he is-- heck, you can link to anything) I'd bet he's a fringe extremist Mormon, perhaps with a few extra wives on the side. For all we know, he may worship in a temple of one. He should get no more importance than he's due.

Bent, if you have access to some sort of hit or isp tracker, you might learn some interesting things about some of your visitors.

Not that this is likely to convince any of your detractors, but I've located a few pages on the Coptic persecutions. It isn't much, but I am still looking. The Sarofim case is so recent I'm not surprised major news outlets haven't picked up on it, but the situation leading up to it is far from new--and the Web is making it a that much harder to keep things hid.

These sites have factsheets or articles:
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=egypt&ID=SP35202
http://www.persecution.org/newsite/countryinfodetail.php?countrycode=7
http://www.cswusa.com/Countries/Egypt.htm
http://www.meforum.org/article/23
I'm leaving them unlinked pending Bent's approval.

I also found references on several Copt blogs and 'Manal and Alaa's Bit Bucket'--but I think the reference was in Arabic as I couldn't locate it.

أغسطس 17, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

cminor - those are great links! I've bookmarked them as ammo for Egyptian muslims who refuse to aknowledge the problem inflicting Egypt. Thanks.

That joseph fellow just ticked me off, that's all. Bad enough we're getting pissed on by our fellow Egyptian muslims...and then some Mormon guy comes and insults what 13 million Christians in Egypt hold dear. Enough already!

أغسطس 17, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Use them wisely, Peter.
Facts beat rhetoric every time!

أغسطس 17, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi Neferteeti,

I think that this post is for me:)

"لو هتسرق اسرق جمل" or
"If you're going to steal,so steal a camel"
That what I meant by my words that Hani isn't effective..
I wondered why this officer looked to this little youth and hoped that he became a Muslim?!!!!!
I think that it's more logical that this officer try to invite officers like him,but to invite a small soldier,it's out of logic.

And here you're an example to clarify;
There is more than one of Christian priest which converted to Islam,and priests are your religious leaders,
So can you feel it;my religious leader who understand my faith more than me left my faith!!I must follow him!!!
This is the point.If you want to invite someone to Islam,you must invite an effective man which is followed by many others,but to care about a small youth,and waste your time trying to force him to be Muslim,and then reach the limit that to kill him,it's out og logic.

Yes,Media publish images of killed children..etc afeected by Israeli and American crimes in Islamic world,but I didn't see before an image of a nacked body!!!!!!
When they publish these pictuers,they cover some places of the body which hurt feelings of human,and you can see Abo-Gharib pics.

By the way,did you read my reply on 'More belated repons'?!!!!!Specially two points:
*Examples of conflictions in the Bible I brought up
*My questions
And when you're going to reply?!!!

أغسطس 21, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

So Mohammed, are you saying because this crime seems "illogical" that it DID NOT HAPPEN?

Are you denying this heinous crime occured?

أغسطس 22, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

Mohamed said "لو هتسرق اسرق جمل"
And "There is more than one of Christian priest which converted to Islam,and priests are your religious leaders,
So can you feel it;my religious leader who understand my faith more than me left my faith!!I must follow him!!!"
Nothing surprises me any more from the "logic !!!" of my Muslim compatriots !!
To Mohamed a Christian corporal is insignificant !!- what an isulting statement to make, insulting to Mohamed's beliefs that is !!
It would be more logical, according to Mohamed's warped thinking to convert Christian clergy, who according to Mohamed, are converting in droves !!! Give me a break !!, or better still give me one shread of evidence of that happening- prove it !!
The clincher is Mohamed would follow his religious leaders- well did you hear, Mohamed, about Shiek El-Azhar who converted to Christianty while in London for treatment in the late 1980's- of course that was NEVER mentioned by anyone in Egypt- Unfortunately I can't recall the prominent sheik's name but if I find it I'll post it
What is sadly obvious is that one humanbeing life is cut short by a sinister religion and its evil doctorine
Hani Sarofim, may you rest in PEACE

أغسطس 23, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

egypeter,

Why you understood my word 'Illogical' that I deny Hani's killing?!!!!!
Why didn't you understand it that I'm saying that this officer was stupid?!!!
Why you didn't understand it that I'm saying that this officer don't know a thing about Islam?!!!
I have a religion which is for me the best,and have also a heart,and this religion and my heart tells me to refuse any oppression against any human whether Muslim or Christian or don't have a religion at all,just because he is human I refuse this oppression,and my religion obligates me to help him if I can.

You know;if this crime really happened as it ws narrated,so here you're my analyse;

Hani was killed becasue of a wrong thing inside this officer,may be a disease or any thing else but he isn't a natural man.
Also he was killed becasue of bad use of authority.
And with no doubt,it's a horrible crime,and this killer officer must be punished so severly.

Again,If it really happened.


red,

However your words aren't appropriate at all,but I'll be kind enough to reply and clarify my point of view.

Really?!!!Did you understand my words about Hani that I'm talking about Christians and Muslims?!!!!
If you REALLY understood it like that so let me clarify a point to you..
In Egypt we Muslims don't say Muslim and Christian,but we say 'Egyptian'..And this is the point of view of many thinkers in Egypt.I don't care what you and some Christians see!!And personally I think that this kind of thinking -that there is Muslims and Christians- seeks unstability in Egypt.

Now,I'd like to clarify 'لو هتسرق اسرق جمل'..
I meant that Hani was a just a soldier not minister of military nor a big officer in military..etc,So did you get it?!!!!!!
A small soldier -whether Muslim or Christian- isn't an example for others following him and don't worth so much that you waste your time trying to force (not invite)him to be Muslim,and then threaten by killing,and finally kill him,and you know what this mean?!!!!
To kill a human is a crime,and a crime commiter must be punished,and the smallest punishment to this officer is to be fired from his jod,So again do you think that it's logical to sacrifice your job in front of a thing which is so useless,worth-less and is Haram in Islamic belief(Forcing a Non-Muslim to convert Islam)?!!!!

And for the reason that 'لو هتسرق اسرق جمل' we Muslims care when a famous actress veils more than when a non-famous girl veils,because so simply this actress is effective and many girls loves her and take her as an example to follow.

By the way;did you REALLY understand it like that?!!!!

If you want an evidence;here you're some:

Didn't you hear about Wafa'a Qustantin which wife of an Egyptian priest,which converted to Islam,but Christians were very angry,and after that I didn't hear any news about her,May be murdered by the Church after long tries to force her to leave Islam,I don't know!!!
See here her story:
http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/55.htm

Another story here:
http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/48.htm

And here:
http://saaid.net/Anshatah/dawah/31.htm

Read them,they may be of benefit.

As for your story about this Sheikh of Al-Azhar;I'll assume that the story is true,however I didn't hear about it before..
You're talking here about one,but when I talk,I'm talking about thousands,whether priests,scientists,thinkers,artists,players,public..etc ,whether Christians,Jewish,Buddhatic,have no religion..etc they convert to Islam,so when you talk about one it's not a clincher,but it's an expection,not a rule.Again,if this really happened.

Didn't you notice before that the way from other religions to Islam is crowded than the way from Islam to other religions?!!!!!!!!!
You must ask yourself;Why?!!!
I know that you love your religion,but the problem isn't to insist on a religion,but the case is to be on the right path.

I hope to know what you meant by '..a sinister religion and its evil doctorine.'?!!!!
And to clarify;are you from those who think that Islam is a terroristic religion and all these fakes?!!!!!!!!

أغسطس 23, 2006  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

Listen Mohamed.

You are only 18 years old. You have much of your life to look forward to. I understand that you are a devout muslim but I want you to understand that there is much more to your life than just Islam. I hope that Islam does not take over your life and that you have a long, prosperous, peaceful life with an open and liberal mind that is free of hatred.

A quick question Mohamed. Do you support the Ikhwan? Would you like to see the Ikhwan become the dominant political and social force in Egypt?

I'd be interested to find out.

Now regarding your comments.

"Why didn't you understand it that I'm saying that this officer was stupid?!!!
Why you didn't understand it that I'm saying that this officer don't know a thing about Islam?!!!"

This officer is not "stupid!" This officer is a violent and evil criminal who should be put to death!!!! "Stupid" best defines some of the comments I read on blogs not the violent brutal murder of an innocent soldier!! If this happened in any other country in the world there would be outrage. How come when it happens in Egypt nobody hears about it? Very strange Mohammed, no?

I'm also so so so tired of muslims telling me that other muslims who act in accordance with the Quran are not true muslims. This sounds so silly! Do you not see how silly that sounds ya mohamed??!!

OK. So is Bin Laden a true muslim? What about Zarqawi and Zawahiri? What about Nasrallah, a true muslim? What about Mohammed Atta, what is he...a true muslim or not? Sheikh Qardawi, is he not a real muslim?

Do you see my point here Mohammed? Is it up to YOU to define who is a true or untrue muslim? Who defines what a "true muslim" is? I guarantee you if you ask any of the above individuals if they thought they were real muslims they would say "yes."

So excuse me if I find you're "but they're not real muslim" argument a little weak. Anyone who justifies his actions through the Quran IS A MUSLIM, in my opinion.

And that's also why I don't buy the bullshit that there "Is no compulsion in religion" line either. Unfortunately, it's the ULTIMATE goal of MOST muslims to convert infidels to Islam. Don't try denying that because nobody on this blog will believe you. This is pretty factual.

And get over the Wafaa Constatntine story, OK?

DID YOU HEAR ME???

This is very important. GET OVER IT ALREADY! This was ONE incident.

By the actions of this one idiotic moronic lady she gave ammunition to every fundementalist muslim to use against the Coptic community.

I'm SO DAMN sick of it because people like YOU now point to her and say, "See, all you Copts want to convert to Islam, the one true religion, but the clergy won't let you."

Forget all of the other crazy shit that happens to us, right? What, you don't believe me? READ THIS BLOG'S PREVIOUS POSTS for a small taste.

And also, despite your incredible efforts to convert Copts...IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN dear Mohammed. You see, the Copts and our culture was in Egypt well before the Arabs invaded and stole OUR land. Do you even know that? Despite your hatred for infidels, do you know that you are, in all liklihood, a decendant of a converted Copt?

And where are all these droves that are flocking to Islam??? Lol. What are you talking about?? Muslims should worry more about the Muslims they already have and not converting more. Muslims should worry more about the increasing fanatic element within their religion then trying to convert Theresa Kamel.

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Sorry, above post was me not sure why it put anonymous.

What's up Bent. Hope you and your family are well mate!

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Ok, so here's another question Mohammed.

Would you consider this CRAZY Cairo Imam Safwat al-Higazi a "true" muslim or not? I'm afraid I know your answer.

I just found this article on Yahoo News.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060822/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictegypt_060822185351

Thank God, at least, that Al Azhar tried to moderate his fatwa, although it's not much better.

That's one of the things that scares me most about political Islam...the fatwas. It seems that many Imams are fatwa-crazy and they have no authority to declare something like that. Remember the fatwa against statues?? LOL, in EGYPT, nontheless!

Let me leave you by a kind, gentle and warm comment by the esteemed Imam al-Higazi:

"I myself am ready to slash the throat of any Israeli I meet," he told the Sawt al-Umma newspaper.

Why not abide by the "love your enemy" teachings of Jesus Christ, huh?? What a different message.

Peace

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Now I have two ways;

First;to involve in a #### discussion with u,and exchange reviles,and bring up hatred..
But as being Muslim,Qur'an orders me:
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Second way;to ignore you at all and don't reply your qurstions,but also I don't prefer this solution,becasue I already have important points and replies on ur questions,and really started typing my reply but stopped when I read these #### reviles.

So I think that if you redacted your message and removed these dirty reviles will be better and more rational.

You can learn from my discussions with Mr.David,he was much more polit than u,and both of us were open-minded,and I really respected him,in contrary of majority of Christians I had discussions with.

Waiting for the redaction..

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Mohammed - I'm not sure if I completely understood your response...but I believe you're asking me to restate my questions.

Here are my questions again.

Do you support the Ikhwan?

Do you believe that all those muslims who are terrorists follow "true" Islam. I'm talking about Bin Laden, Zarqawi, Zawahiri, Atta, Qardawi, etc..

Do you agree with that Cairo Imam al-Higazi?

Do you know that if you are truly an Egyptian then you are probably a descendent of a converted Copt.

These were my main question to you Mohammed. My other point is that you are only 18 years old. Extreme religiosity when you are a teenager is not a good thing. Don't you have other things to occupy your time like sports, friends, hobbies?? What I'm trying to say is don't let religion consume your life.

Peace

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

This was in rsponse to Mohamed's prior post, but I don't see that he has written about it in the last one so I guess it's still current.

Mohamed:
Almost every post, it's the same thing:
1. Your faith is very important to you. You believe it's the right path. How can the rest of us be so dense as not to see it?

Well, maybe we are dense, and maybe we aren't. The human mind is free to accept or reject beliefs as it sees fit. People are not the same. Everyone doesn't see things your way. When people kill and destroy in the name of Islam, it doesn't matter whether they're bad Muslims; people are going to be less inclined to accept your views. When you make excuses for them or try to shift blame elsewhere, you become part of the problem in most people's minds. If you want people to see the good you see in your faith, deal with the bad first.

2. You don't believe Muslims did [whatever.] It's not Islamic behavior. If Muslims did this, they're bad Muslims (or insane.)

Is there no crime in Egypt? Do Muslims never do wrong? I don't know about this case; I wasn't there. But there are plenty of others that have been extremely well documented. There is also a documented policy of discrimination against the dhimmi in many Muslim countries. You can look it up easily. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are good places to start. Unless you're convinced that the rest of the world is always lying. Realize that it would be a virtual impossibility to keep up such a deception.

3. We are all Egyptians.

And should be treated as such. When one subgroup starts treating another unfairly and the government doesn't stop it, it's hard to make that case. Nationalism is easy when you aren't the one being oppresed.

4. It's the fault of the 'murderous' U.S. and Israel.

All I can say about Israel is that it's an extremely well-armed little strip of desert. If they were determined to wipe out Palestine, and southern Lebanon too, why haven't they? They more than have the capacity. It would save them lives, and trouble.

As for the U. S., yes, we are the world's 800-pound gorilla. We're no more murderous than a gorilla, but you can't miss the signs when we've been somewhere. We're accused of imperialistic notions, but believe me, if we actually had them, you'd be speaking perfect English today. The U.S. has a strong isolationist streak, so normally you have to do something like fly planes into our buildings and kill lots of innocent men, women, and children to rile us. Please realize that the 'murderous' U. S. has contributed more aid to Palestine than the wealthiest Muslim nations (see: http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/), intervened repeatedly on behalf of the Palestinians with Israel, and at NATO's head defended the Muslim-majority Bosnians from genocide.

5. Wafa Qu'stantine

Evidently desperate Coptic housewives who run off with the gardener and convert to Islam are few and far between, as she seems to be the perennial example. I'd like some evidence of those 'convert' priests, too. Not that it matters. Priests are human. They falter. They do wrong. They cave under pressure. Sometimes they go crazy. Christians follow the word of God, not the priest.

6. Outrage over nudity

It's an odd moral code that is more offended by the depiction of a nude corpse than by the brutal actions that turned a young man into a corpse. Anyway, who deprived him of his clothes (and his life?) Do you really think that the fact that this poor young man's genitals are not covered is the worst thing about this picture?

If you find this offensive, I am sorry--but I stand by my words. I'm not angry, but I am a blunt-spoken person. I've heard it all before, and I think it's about time you came up with some answers rather than the same rhetoric and the same questions over and over.

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hi everyone
Please accept my apologies for my apparent absence. I've been listening to you guys but I haven't been well enough or had enough time to respond yet. Please excuse me as I'm going through a rough time at the moment (and have been for a couple of months) but I will post a response to you all tomorrow (God willing).

PLease remember me in your prayers

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Blogger DavidNic said...

Always in my prayers

أغسطس 24, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

cminor said to Mohamed "The human mind is free to accept or reject beliefs as it sees fit. People are not the same. Everyone doesn't see things your way. When people kill and destroy in the name of Islam, it doesn't matter whether they're bad Muslims; people are going to be less inclined to accept your views. When you make excuses for them or try to shift blame elsewhere, you become part of the problem in most people's minds. If you want people to see the good you see in your faith, deal with the bad first."

cminor- you rock !!

Mohamed is the product of a "society" dominated by inseparable religion and dogma that leave very little room, if any, to "free minds"- Not dissimilar to Hilter's youths, Mao's guards, or closer to Mohamed, Nasser's socialist union cadres and Muslim Brotherhood. They all saw no evil and heard no evil, while their socities were corrupted and undermined from within. And that's what has been taking place in the last few decades in the Islamic "world", where they blame someone else (non-Muslim of course) for any problem, they peddle half truths and inaccurate heresay as the truth (when it suits), and wishful thinking mixes freely with fiction to form the Muslims' nirvana... a world free of infidles !! and that evil, my friend cminor, is what the world has to deal with, and poor Mohamed is but one of the pawns not dissimilar to his description of the late Hani Sarofim.

أغسطس 25, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

UNCLE (عمو)(18-31) egypeter,

And that's also why I don't buy the bullshit that there "Is no compulsion in religion" line either.

By the actions of this one idiotic moronic lady she gave ammunition to every fundementalist muslim to use against the Coptic community.

I'm SO DAMN sick of it because ..

Forget all of the other crazy shit that happens ..

Would you consider this CRAZY Cairo Imam Safwat al-Higazi a "true ..


What you call these words?!!!!!!
As being Muslim I consider that they are DIRTY reviles and useless insults.

Listen UNCLE egypeter,
You must learn some lessons for your life,

First lesson:Not because you don't believe in a thing,so that gives you the right to direct reviles towards this belief,whatever you see that this belief differs with yours.

Second lesson:Not because you don't share another persons's belief,so that gives you the right to revile him,or insult the belief which he see the best.
Qur'an says:"Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah.." 6:108

Third lesson:Don't revile a body in his\her absence.

Fourth lesson:Using reviles is too bad,so usless and worthless,whether towards human,animlas or even things.
One day Prophet Mohammad heared a man calling a dog:'O Dog,son of a dog',prophet ordered him not to do that,the man said that it's truly a dog and son of a dog,the prophet replied that he said it insulting it.

That what my religon teaches me,if your belief didn't teached it for you so learn it from Islam,they are good lessons for an ordinary human.

I understood your questions from the first time and you didn't have to reply them.What I meant by redacting the message,that you re-type it again but without these reviles and without insulting any body,just provide your points without reviles,without iunsults.

By the way,Why you used these reviles,is it a must to revile to tell me about your point of view?!!!!!(I believe that 'Tounge is the ladle of what is inside you'(اللسان مغرفة ما بداخلك).)So if your inside contains love and kindness so you'll say words dropping love and kindness,and if your inside contains hatred and despite so you'll say words dropping hatred,despite=(bad words).

Any way,I'll lie on myself and assume that you were on the enough level of politley in presenting your point of view,and will reply without your purification of your message.

Yes,I'm 18 years,and you're 31 years,what is the problem?!!!
Manliness and wisdom isn't by How age r u?,but by What you believe in?,and the near example is YOU;you're using useless reviles,Do you think that it's out of wisdom and manliness to revile?!!
I believe in a protocol which tells me not to revile,whether you differs with me in belief or not,it says:Don't revile,whether human,thing or animal,Don't revile.

And to know Islam is the first thing in my life and that makes me so happy,
Islam obligates me to ask for science so I'm excellent in my study(I was the 11th on my college(about 7000 students),Islam respects my mind,don't delete it and orders me to think in this wide universe,Islam orders me to be moderate not to be illiberal nor to be loose,Islam orders me to smile to others,Islam orderes me to deal kindly and justly with peoples who don't believe in Islam,Islam orders me to be peaceful and to hope safety for others,Islam orders me to defend myself so I don't live in surrender but it put limits when I defend myself,Islam orders me to be effective in my society and always to try to change it peacefully,Islam orders me when I do any deed to do it as the best,Islam orders me to be sucessful in my material life,Islam satisfyes my spiritual side,Islam orders me to be virtuous,Islam orders me not to kill,drink or steal,Islam orders me not to cause any kind of harm for others,Islam orders me to help others not looking at their belief,Islam orders me not to insult others,Islam orders me to be intelligent not leery,Islam orders me not to lie,Islam orders me to care for my body and my health,Islam organizes my way of eating,Islam orders me to be clean in my spirit,body,surrounding environment,Islam orders me to be merciful with human,animal and things,Islam gives me the right of freedom in my thinking and expressing my point of view,Islam is ordering me to repect beliefs of others and not to insult it,Islam orders me to be open-minded,Islam orders me to seek knowledge wherever I find it and to take it from any body whether differs with me in belief or not,Islam orders me to be optimistic in my life....etc
Islam is generally organizing my life to be the best materially and spirtually and to success in my current life and life after death.
And having a protocol of life is the most important in a one's life,becasue without a protocol for your life you're lost.

So why don't I put this great protocol of life(If this word gives Islam its value) as my first interest?!!!!!
And if I didn't put it as first aim of life,so what this other thing which can organize my life like Islam?!!!!!!!And if I didn't take prophet Mohammad as te first example of my life,who is like him?!!!!And if I didn't worship Allah,who will I worship?!!!!

And do you think that a religion like Islam(not IMAGE of Islam in your mind)is good to be left,and that I mustn't be religiuos?!!!!

Allah is my God,He is the One God who I worship,He has no son and no wife,and there is no thing like Him,I just worship Him and not another thing beside Him.
Islam is my religion,and I'm so happy for that,and know that to be a Muslim is to be sucessful in my material life and my life after I dies.
Mohammad(PBUH) is my prophet,and he's my first example,and I'm so proud of that.

Just an information for you;If I want to seek an advice,I'll hear it from a one who loves me,not who hate me for no reason,and at least don't believe in my belief but respect it(at least)or at leaster don't insult it,also the one who I take an advice from him must understand what I believe in,finally he must be open-minded and is ready to hear from me,not just directing insulting and harmful critic using lowest words.
So keep your advice for youeself.


As for your questions;

Yes,I pray to see the day when Islam judges the earth,I don't care what group rules,but just Islam.
I mean here real Islam,not IMAGE of Islam in your mind,
Islam which cares for weak before powerful,Islam which gives people of the Book their rights,Islam which set peace and justice among peoples,Islam which cares for human life not taking in consideration their beliefs,Islam which respects humanity law,Islam which organizes man's life whether material or spirtual life,Islam which gives a man his right whether Muslim,Christian,Jewish,..etc,Islamwhich carries economical prosperity for the world,Islam which respects 'Freedom of speach' and Islam which sets equality among all people.


Yes,that sounds so silly that you didn't read my analyse when I assumed that this crime really happened.
Also that sounds too silly that you didn't understood the word 'stupid' and what I was meaning..
It was related to that it's an illogical crime.

A last thing;If you want to know my style in my discussions,you can read my discussions with Mr.David.
And after that you may understand what I meant when I told you that I have two ways...
If you won't change your way of discussion,I can't force another one to follow my way in discussion,you're free,but just I'll retreat and won't continue my discussion with you.
That's becasue I hate reviles and don't like to say it same I hate not to hear\read it. Got it?!!

Just a notification;all these statements I said about Islam aren't fabrications but they are taken from Islamic teachings,if you aren't convinced because of this IMAGE of Islam in your mind'tell me and I'll try to give you every teaching related to every statement.
Don't hurry up saying that they are false and this isn't Islam and your words will be useless and the you(egypeter) understand Islam more than me..bla bla bla.


I think that till now is enough and promise to reply rest points within few days specially the definition of a real Muslim,


cminor,

Also I promise to read your comment and reply with my next reply to egypeter.


Till we meet again,

Peace,

أغسطس 25, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Wow. I think I counted 207 "reviles" in your last response Mo. Not to sound rude, but I'm not even sure what a revile is?

You gave a nice little speech there on how Islam controls every single fiber of your being. On how Islam utterly dominates every aspect of your entire life. Mabrouk, I hope it makes you happy Mohammed. All it did for me was validate why I think the middle east and Egypt will be stuck in the medieval ages for the next millenium.

You also might be surprised that I don't hate you Mohammed. And I don't hate muslims. I think I may have told you this before but I have muslim friends here in the states ya mohammed that I am particularly close with. I meet many of them in Chicago at restaurants, bars, clubs all the time.

But what I do hate is Islamic fundementalism, Islamofascism, Islamism, Political Islamism however the hell you wanna describe it...THOSE are the things I hate. Understand? Now my problem is is that the advocates of these "movements" use the Quran as their constitution. Am I right or not? Doesn't Bin Laden use the Quran to justify all of his actions? Yes he does. It all comes from their radical (maybe literal would be a better word) translation of the Quran. You see? But moderate/practicing muslims...God bless them, they're not the ones trying to kill me, it's the fundementalists.

My questions above still stand. Actually, forget those questions. I'll sum it up in one question?

What do you think of the teachings of Sayyid Qutb? I'm sure you are familiar with his ideology Mohammed since you are at the very top of your class. Tell me if you agree with what he says...

أغسطس 26, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Egypeter,

Not amazed at all that you don't understand what a revile means,that looks like that modern Christians have a special world where every thing is different,Don't be angry,also I asked another Christian on this blog;Are you Christians allowed to look at sexy stories?!!!!But he didn't understand what a sexy story means.

Imagine that it was said crazy Pope,Is it a revile?!!!!!!
That's the same you did with a Muslim Sheikh.

Any way,I promised and my religion obligates me to pay back,so I'm going to reply your questions,and another promise,it's the last message from me to you,

Anyone who justifies his actions through the Quran IS A MUSLIM, in my opinion.

So are you really beleiving in this rule?!!!!!!Are you sure?!!!!
So,don't you see that Christians who declared barbaric Crusade wars against Islamic state were justifying this war through Bible were CHRISTIANS!!!!!

Not because you're stupid(not you)and don't have a brain in your head,and understood Qur'anic verse ordering defending yourself as it's ordering bombing yourself in INOCENTS LIVING SAFELY IN THEIR OWN HOMES,and forget all verses ordering not to get close to a one who don't fight you,SO,you're a true Muslim.It's not right at all.

If you REALLY,TRULY, and RIGHTLY want a defenition for a true Muslim so it's easy for a neutral,free and open-minded person,If you consider yourself like that so it's so easy for you to know who is a true Muslim.
Just open Qur'an and read it as a whole,don't read it as parts,don't choose verses and put them out of their context,read them trying to understand them,try to read what Muslim scholras said about these verses,try to read teachings of prophet Mohammad,try to read about Islamic civilization,try to be free of fakes said about Islam and judge it by your free mind.Afer all that and after using your FREE,NEUTRAL and OPEN MIND you can understand who is a true Muslim.
And there is a word I heared before and liked it:'لا يوجد مسلم حجة على الإسلام
If you didn't understand it,it means that just Islamic teachings which represents Islam,it means by another word that when you want to judge Islam you can't say:'But this Muslim so-and-so(فلان)is doing this thing' but you just can say:'But Qur'an is ordering to do this thing'
So if you want to judge Islam,don't restrict your mind on some people,and forget the most important thing which is to read Islamic teachings itself,and see real Muslims who peformed Islam as it is.

By the way,I bet that you aren't going to do any of these things becasue you just want to have a corrupted image of Islam,because if you saw true image of Islam,modern Christian belief won't be in the enough level to equal Islam.
If you trust your Christian belief,so try to understand Islam.
I assure again that you won't.

Just a word,a true Muslim isn't a one who lives in surrender to the enemy nor who kill innocents.

How silly?!!!!
What is the confliction between "Let there be no compulsion in religion" and that the ULTIMATE goal of MOST muslims to convert non-Mulims to Islam?!!!!!!
There is no contradiction at all.
May be becasue you don't believe in freedom of thinking and don't respect mind so you didn't understand this verse,so let me explain;
Islam believes that every one is free in his\her thinking,and he\she is free to choose the religion he will follow,but becasue Islam is the right and the last message to the earth so every one must know about it,so Muslims are obligated to invite others to Islam by explaining it to them,and clarifying its teachings to them and after understanding Islam they have the complete freedom to convert Islam or not,and we believe that a one must convert Islam by his complete own freedom and after the complete convince that Islam is the right path,and without this convince his convert is useless.
May be you said that for another reason,that there is a fakes said that there is Muslims who force others to be Muslims(not our issue is that right or not)so the verse is so clear for a NON-biased person,it says:"Let there be no compulsion in religion",
and as for the way of inviting it's not by saying;'My religion is the right,and any other thing is a fake and have no rigt'it's not the Islamic way at all,but the way is as the verse ordered:"ادع إلى سبيل ربك بالحكمة والموعظة الحسنة وجادلهم بالتي هي أحسن إن ربك هو أعلم بمن ضل عن سبيله وهو أعلم بالمهتدين"
"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." 16:125


By the actions of this one idiotic moronic lady she gave ammunition to ..
Why you don't say;'By the actions of Coptic community against freedom of choosing your religion,it prooved that Copts don't believe in freedom of religion'?!!!!!!!
The poor lady became Muslim,but she didn't know that it's comunity don't respect freedom of religion.

So,you want me to get over Mrs.Wafaa Qustanteene story!!!!!Ok,get over who kill innocents under Islam name,what is their percentage beside percentage of Muslims?!!!!!!

What is these words about hatred against infidels?!!!!!
Who told you that I hate infudels?!!!I'm chating with them as friends,and this comes from my religion which orders me clearly:
"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. "
And if I was truly a decendant of a REAL Christian,so I must be proud that my grandfathers were faithful and believed in the true message.

And where are all these droves that are flocking to Islam???
Are you really asking?!!!Do you really want to know?!!!!
Why don't you enter Google and search for 'Growing of Islam'
Don't you know that since 2001 espicially since 11-9 Muslims are increasing in number?!!!
Don't you know that average annual growth of 5% / 10,228,750 for the period of 1935 to 1983 (209,020,000?700,000,000){Reference:www.wikipedia.org}
Any way,see these links;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/world_religions/islam.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

I'm sure you won't see them,but I'm just giving you links and you have the freedom to see them or not.

What a different message.
It's a big deal.If you know,when Muslims were in Al-Habasha(Ethiopia), Al-Nagashi(Al-Habasha king) said to them after listening to some verses of Surat Mary :"This(Islam) and what Jesus came by are from one lantern"إن هذا والذي جاء به عيسى ليخرج من مشكاة واحدة
And if it's truly from sayings of prophet Jesus(PBUH)that to love your enemy is that means that he is killing your sons and family and rapping your daughters and then love him?!!!!!!
I don't think that this what prophet Jesus meant.
In Islam it organizes our relations with the enemy like that;
If he is fighting against us so we must defend ourselves,taking in consideration to fight against just who fight against us(Not like Jewish who were killing any living thing whether a child,a woman,a baby,a civilian in Lebanon and Palestine),
after that if they wanted peace,we must accept it(Peace not pE@cE).
If this is different with teachings of Christianity,so explain for me what means to love your enemy?!!!!!!!!!!!

As for your question that I'm just 18 years old,and if I have things to occupy my time with.
Dear,
Any thing in my life is ruled by my religion,Yes,I have friends who help me to be devout,and I have hobies like Reading whether Islamic books or science books becasue Islam obligates me to ask for science,and also I love Fishing because Islam orders me to contemplate in this universe,and love Skating and Football becasue Islam orders me to amuse myself in Halal,and so on.

The teachings of Sayyid Qutb
WOW,He became a prophet who has a private teachins and I didn't know!!!!
Any way,as I told you,not a person who represent Islamic teachings,but just Islamic teachings represent Islamic teachings.
If you're asking about my own point of view,so in fact,I don't know much about him,but if he is saying that Islam is to be peaceful with peace-loving,and just with who don't accept it,and to defend yourself aginst who want to kill you without transgrassing limits,so sure he's right.
But as I didn't read for him,you must take care that he is a human and a human can do wrong,not like God who do not any fault.

A last message,if you are refusing to read about Islamic religion neutrally,freely,justly and by an open mind,so forgive me to say;'You're wrong'
Not becasue it's my religion,but becuse you're judging it,and to judge a thinking,philosophy or religion you must read about it from its sources and also can read for who wrote about this thinking,philosophy or religion neutrally..
So to sum up,to judge Islam read Qur'an,Sunnah and Foqaha' books,having the character of a neutral,free and open-minded man,leaving any kind of hatred and biased.
And to know,to judge Christianty I came to you,here,to his blog,to chat with you,to know what you're believing in,to see if Christianity equals ISalm..etc and to reply many questions in my mind,and I'm forming my judgement throygh my chat with you Christians.

Read this verse and see if you're from those or not;
"He said: "What! Even if I brought you better guidance than that which ye found your fathers following?" They said: "For us, we deny that ye (prophets) are sent (on a mission at all)."
And notice that they didn't give themselves the chance to understand better guidance than following their fathers,just they refused.

I can't lie and say I enjoyed discussing with you,but all what I can say is;May God lead you to the truth.

Peace be with you,

أغسطس 31, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Mohammed -

I have neither the heart nor will to discuss with you anymore. I'd spend the next 2 hours trying to answer every single point in that long and winded response of yours.

But, just one quick thing here. Did you hear the news about the 2 Fox News (my favorite news channel) journalists who were captured in Gaza? Well, I was reading their story and I picked up on a point that made me wonder about that good 'ol "No Compulsion in regligion" comment in the Qur'an that you keep insisting on. You remember that one right? We discuss it often.

Here's the link to the story, I know you won't read it either, but I'll sum it up for you anyway.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210645,00.html

"He recounted how he and Wiig were pulled out of their car on August 14 and taken at gunpoint into another car. The kidnappers blindfolded them and handcuffed their hands behind their backs with plastic ties. They were then transferred to another car and driven to a building that they later learned was a garage.

"We were pushed down onto the dirt-covered concrete floor and we were forced to lie face down with our handcuffs on," Centanni said.

"Olaf was in the same room with me. Our shoulders were wrenched back, very painful."

Both of the men were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint, Centanni said.

"We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni told FOX News. "Don't get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn't know what the hell was going on."

hmmm. Gunpoint?? "Forced to convert to Islam?" That sounds a little compulsive to me ya mohammed. Maybe I'm wrong but a gun to my head with my hands tied behind my back would classify as "compulsive" to me. Maybe I'm crazy but anyone besides Mohammed agree with me?

I know, I know...they're probably not "muslim," right? But then who is, Zawahiri?

And since you haven't "enjoyed chatting with me" feel free NOT to respond to this comment as long as you read it. And may God lead YOU to the truth, my friend.

Salaam.

سبتمبر 01, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi Cminor,

Sorry for the lateness.

As for your first point I didn't got what you are talking about,but sure you see your faith the right path,and I see my religion the right path,but I think that there is a basic difference,I gave myself the opportunity to understand your faith from your mouths not through sayings of Muslim scholars,and tried as I could to be neutral and I reached after that the truth by myself and through my own thinking that Christianity is in its origin is right but its followers corrupted some things of it,and let me ask you here some things not to reply but to try to ask yourself neutrally,Is this a protocol from God?!!!!!
*Is a God have God?!!!!Sure not,but Jesus had God.
*Is a God be limited in a place?!!Sure not,but Jesus have been limited in a body which is clearly a limitation for God.
*Can God be seen on earth?!!!Sure not,but many saw and heared Jesus.
*Can God eat,drink,go to bathroom?!!!Sure God don't need these things,but Jesus was doing all these things.
*Is it out of justice & mercy to punish an innocent for a thing he didn't commit?!!!!Sure not,but you believe that God punished Jesus for sins of men.
*Is it logical that God narrate a sexy story in His Holy book to order men not to harlot,however He could order them not to do without irritating them?!!!Sure not logical,but in Old Teastement there is a sexy story of a man describing a nacked woman.
*Is out of logic that God know that a thing is harmful and don't order man not to get close to it?!!!!Sure not,but science proved that beers and pig are harmful for a man,but I didn't see a verse in Bible ordering not to eat or drink them.

And so on,

All these are questions in my mind,if you're biased towards Christianity,sure you'll see that they are fakes and have no fact,but if you though neutrally in them,you'll see the truth.


What is this use of the word Dhimmi?!!!You use it as a Dhimmi equals to be humble and don't have any right under Isalmic state!!!
I won't tell you about Dhimmi rights in Islam,but you can read Qur'an and Sunnah or go to Islamic websites and see what a Dhimmi equals in Islamic state and what is his rights,and also to read some stories which represents rights of Dhimmi in Islamic state.

IF YOU WILL,you can go here;
www.islamonline.net

If you won't,plesase don't talk about a thing till you understand it well.


In Egypt there are human living.Believe me!!!!
And every human can do wrong.Whether Muslim,Jewish,Christian..etc.
So as a Muslim may do wrong,a Christian can do wrong too.
Sure,they may be some crash between Muslims and Christians,and this is so normal and so natural in a country which contains different groups with different faiths.
And this is back to the misunderstanding of beliefs,and the restriction of minds,but to back this crash to the belief itself,it's too false and who says that is a big liar.Sure,I'm talking here about who claim that Islam forces others to convert Islam,and all these lies and fakes.
So if you see my point,I don't deny that there is very few individual accidents,but I refuse amplifying them,and to lie that Islam itself is the reason.
Please,I don't want any of who read this part to deny that they were lying that Islam is the reason,because it's so clear when you use the gum 'DHIMMI'


Yes,we're all Egyptians and should be treated as such,A Muslim should be equaled by a Christian in politial,social,economical and religious duties and rights,but the government don't see this fact.
A Christian is better than a Muslim.


So,you see that Israel really want peace,and America supports it in this peace,and Arab refuse Peace.Right?!!!
It's a clear changing of facts,and here you're why.

If Isarel want peace,why it attacked Lebanon?!!!!Don't say because this terrorist group kidnapped the poor soldiers!!Because simply if it was a reaction,it will be an appropriate reaction to kidnapp elements of this group,but it wasn't what it did,but choosed to still attacking civilians and killing children and destroying hospitals to force Hizbollah to let them go.
WHY?!!! WE DON"T DEAL WITH TERRORISTS!!!
huh
And who exchanged soldiers before with same Hizbollah in years 1996,1998,2004,wasn't it you Israel,and wasn't it Hizbollah?!!!!!
And wasn't you Israel who refused to complete the exchanging process as it was approved by both sides,and Nasrollah promised because of this falsity to capture Israeli soldiers to negotiate on.
And yes,I support you that America contributed more aid to Palestine and Lebanese than the wealthiest Muslim nations!!!!
It helped Palestininas by giving Israel F16,it helped Palestinians by fulling the Israeli army store,it helped Palestinians by supporting the declaration of Israeli state in year 1948,it helped Palestinians by giving Israel all what it need,yes it's helping Palestinians more than we can help them.
And I can't deny that America helped Lebanese as well,yes,it gave Israel SMART rockets knowing that it's going to hit children in Qana and other Lebanese villages and cities,yes,it hepled Lebanese by refusing to order Israel to stop fire,yes,it want after giving Israel pickax which destroyed Lebanon to give Lebanon bricks to rebuild it.
And if you don't believe that America is the new imperialic stae after England and France before.
Don't you hear Bush talking about Democracy in Arabian states?!!!Don't you hear Condaleza Rice talking about NEW MIDDLE EAST?!!!!
Don't you consider this imperialism?!!!!It's called in International law,'Interference in another country's inside cases'
Islamic lands aren't the country of their father to speak about it like that.
Imagine cminor that Mexico kidnapped Condaleza and Ramsefeld and some other American Ministers and some elements of the Congress,what this mean for America?!!!What America will do for that?!!!!!What the CS,UN,MH,JS,LL,FF…etc will do to release them from this terrorist state?!!!!!!Do Mexico want Peace then?!!!!
So the fact now is that Israel kidnapped Palestinian Ministers and some elements of the government.So,Do Israel want peace by that?!!!Do it want Justice?!!!!!
Dear,don't you know that Israel still putting Lebanon under breakout?!!!!Don't you know that it still -after 1701 which both Lebanon and Israel accepted- attacking Lebanese lands?!!!!!!Don't you know that before 72 hours from 1701 resolution,Israel dropped 90% of its bombs on Lebanon?!!!!!
Israel don't respect international law,or resolutions,Israel don't want peace,Israel want the full destruction of Palestine,Israel want a state from Nile to Euphrates and America is supporting it.


If you want examples for preists convering to Islam,there is a lot;you can search on IslamOnLine or Islamway.com.


Don't apologize,your words represents you.

Peace,

سبتمبر 01, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

"*Is out of logic that God know that a thing is harmful and don't order man not to get close to it?!!!!Sure not,but science proved that beers and pig are harmful for a man,but I didn't see a verse in Bible ordering not to eat or drink them."

Huh? What science is this that you speak of? Pork and beer are harmful to the body? Wrong. Didn't you say you were the smartest kid in your class? Go look that one up properly in a science book not the Qur'an.

"Sure,they may be some crash between Muslims and Christians,and this is so normal and so natural in a country which contains different groups with different faiths."

HUH? What kind of awful mentality is that? NO, THIS IS NOT "so normal and natural" as you claim!! Only someone that has no concept of a civil and secular state would say something like that.

You have a lot to learn, good luck.

سبتمبر 01, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

I don't know if it's worth trying to argue every point in that rant and it's going to take me a while to get through it all, anyway. One point, though, since Peter brought it up:

The view of pigs as unclean predates Islam by millenia; it's a tenet of Juadaism at least from the earliest books of the Bible. In Genesis, God instructs Noah:
Of every clean animal, take with you seven pairs,...and of the unclean animals, one pair...
(Gen. 7:2)
In Leviticus, food prohibitions are plainly laid out for the Children of Israel:
All hoofed animals that are not cloven-footed or do not chew the cud are unclean for you...
(Lev. 11:26)

This practice is now believed to be one of humnanity's earliest health laws. If you know much of vertebrate biology, you know that pigs have some physiological similarities to humans (I may get an earful over that statement) that results in them being hosts to a number of the worst human parasites. Eating uncooked or undercooked pork is extremely dangerous. Also, pigs tend to be omnivorous, eating meat as well as plants, and garbage feeders,eating dead and decomposing matter which can be rife with disease.

Contact with other cultures when Palestine was part of the Roman Empire led to increasing contact with people who did not follow the Levitical food practices. When many Non-Jews began to take an interest in Christianity in the years following the Resurrection, this became a problem for the Jewish Christians, as increased contact with interested Gentiles put them at risk of having to eat 'unclean' food. In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter, then leader of the new church, reports a vision that resolves this problem for him: God shows him all the earth's four-legged animals and invites him to eat. When Peter objects, God replies,
What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.'
(Acts 10:15)

In fact, Orthodox Jews and some Christian denominations (such as Seventh-Day Adventists) still adhere to the Levitical dietary laws, for religious but not sanitary reasons. Pork, properly handled and cooked, is safe to eat.

As for the beer question, Proverbs 31 immediately came to mind:
It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
not for kings to drink wine;
strong drink is not for princes!

(Prov. 31:4)

Other than this I can't think of any other Biblical prohibition on alcohol, although examples abound (Noah, Lot, Samson,Holofernes) of the hazards of drinking to excess.

Sanitation issues, again have to be considered: If you drank water in many places at these times, you took your life into your hands. Ditto any fruit juice that wasn't fermented. A little alcohol went a long way to preserving the lives of these early people by killing the germs that would otherwise have infested their drinking supply.

That's my two bits' worth. I'll go over the rest when I can. What is the rationale against pork and alcohol in the Qu'ran?

سبتمبر 01, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Ok, I’m back…thanks for your prayers :)

I know I said I’d follow every comment until I had the time and energy to respond…but forgive me I had to stop after Cminor’s comment on August 24. Oh no it wasn’t because I didn’t have the time…it’s because I found myself simply overwhelmed that Cminor verbalised (so eloquently I might add) so much of what I wanted to say…and some that I didn’t even know how to start to express.
Thank you Cminor :)



Mohamed;
I really hate repeating myself but sometimes I feel I have no choice…
I respect your zeal for your faith
I do not label all Muslims terrorists or even bad people
I so love Egypt and my fellow Egyptians that I dearly want the best for them

Now,
Please try to respect the right of others to choose their faith
Please try not to be so one-minded
Please try to be prepared to listen to an alternative point of view
Please try to give others what you expect them to give you

Throughout our conversations (since late 2005) you have systematically chosen to close your eyes to the fact that there are some Muslims who treat non-Muslims unfairly…sometimes downright criminally…and they do it all in the name of Islam.

STOP
PLEASE DO NOT SHOOT BACK WITH “THEY’RE BAD MUSLIMS AND ISLAM IS INNOCENT OF THEM”

WE DO NOT CARE.

There’s an Arabic saying that goes:
الاعتراف بالحق فضيله

To acknowledge truth is a virtue

So I hope you actually acknowledge the truth. Because when you don’t, you’re actually contributing to the injustice. Not to mention admitting the guilt of Islamic teachings in inciting hatred.

If these actions have nothing to do with Islam, then acknowledging their existence will not harm Islam…unless you’re not convinced that Islam is innocent?

You have no idea how many times I had to decide whether to laugh, scoff or cry at your comments.

A small soldier -whether Muslim or Christian- isn't an example for others following him and don't worth so much that you waste your time trying to force (not invite)him to be Muslim,and then threaten by killing,and finally kill him,and you know what this mean?!!!!

Silly me!! I was under the impression that all life is sacred to God, and all life is worth saving. (because obviously if you want to guide someone to your own religion, you do believe you are guiding them to salvation)…silly, silly me!!


Didn't you hear about Wafa'a Qustantin which wife of an Egyptian priest,which converted to Islam,but Christians were very angry,and after that I didn't hear any news about her,May be murdered by the Church after long tries to force her to leave Islam,I don't know!!!


This one was more conducive to merriment than it was to tears.

What church killed her mate?? Churches, you'll be shocked to learn, are not in the business of killing people...please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then you cite a couple of links from that website…which reminded me of a certain young man I used to speak to who always got a bit upset when I cited references from websites and books that he called “anti-Islamic”…and demanded I stick to “unbiased sources”

Oh wait a minute…that was you!!! Ironic!

Didn't you notice before that the way from other religions to Islam is crowded than the way from Islam to other religions?!!!!!!!!!

Ummm…who told you that??? Said El Fouad?

And what does this prove anyway? Who cares?
If you look to hoards of converts so you can feel assurance of your faith, then forgive me but you should look for your faith itself.

And similarly, if a priest (or ten or a thousand…or the pope) converting to Islam is going to put doubt in my heart that Christ is Lord and Saviour, then I don’t deserve Christ the Lord and Saviour!

OK, I’ve said enough for one day. I apologise in advance for my sarcasm...its how I deal with anger/hurt/confusion sometimes

Peace all

سبتمبر 01, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Bent:
Thank you for the compliment. Your remarks were eloquent, as always.

Perhaps you can clarify one thing for me. You will note that I used the word 'dhimmi' once, in a fairly neutral way. The response from Mohammed to this was, well, explosive.
Any thoughts as to why the mere mention of this word generated such a reaction? Here Mo's telling me that he 'uses our words' to explain Christians; well, I'm using one of his and based on the reaction one would think I swore a blue streak at a Garden Club luncheon.
I can think of some other terms I might have used instead that I suspect wouldn't have been any more palatable!

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Hey Bent - Hope you are well!!

It's nice to hear from you on your blog :)

It's all I can do sometimes not to punch my computer when I read some comments, so I understand your anger/confusion/sadness.

If someone doesn't wanna listen they'll never hear.

Cminor:

"Dhimmi" is one of the things that the muslim ummah likes to hide from non-muslims, along with their world view of a muslim califphate. Remember, "there's no compulsion in religion" but they aspire for the entire world to submit to allah. That's why every muslim, our friend mohammed included, is so preoccupied with the number of converts.

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Cminor,

What're you talking about?!!!!I didn't understand what was your point in this long message?!!!!
You just narrated a history.

Is it prohibited for you or not?!!!
I understood from UNCLE egypeter that it's not prohibited,and from you I understood that it's not good in Torah,SO?!!!!

Sorry,but who eat any meat without cooking?!!!!
And if we assumed that it's healthy to eat it,will you accept to eat it after knowing what it eats?!!!!
You must know that it eat rubbish,wastes of human and drink dirty water,and flesh of an animal is formed from what it eat!
So,when a man eats pork,it's like eating rubbish.
As for me,I don't accept by my nature to eat it.
And if we assumed that it's cooked,don't you know that it's cooked quickly that it don't have the enough time to kill germs?!!!!!!

Any way if you want to know where Qur'an prohibited pork and beer,here you're:

"172. O ye who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to Allah, if it is Him ye worship.
173. He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful. " 2:172,173

"90. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper." 5:90



Neferteeti,

Firstly;One thouthand thanks for God for you recovery .:)
حمدا لله على السلامة

Don't let any anger make you forget our friendship or let reviles of others make you angry.

Be sure that you don't have to repeat your replies,because simply these messages weren't for you at all.They were just discussions between me and your friends.
Any way,never mind.

You see that How many believe in your faith? isn't important?!!!Right?!!!!
If you thought about it,following a religion has two ways,by birth,or by your own conviction,and if you contemplated about it,you'll find that Islam is widely spread across the world in America and Europe..etc.And this is important because when a religion has many followers(not by birth but conviction) so it's a proof that its conditions fits more number of people,so it's generally right.
And if it's not important;why you deny the fact that Islam is widely spreaded?!!!!
I gave them the links from neutral sources,but assure that they didn't had a look on them.It's not my problem,but their problem that they don't want to see what the other side have,and block their ears from hearing me,and after that they deny.

Don't you see Neferteeti that there is an odd thing?!!!
I explained in my pre-last message that only teachings of Islam represents teachings of Islam,not faults of its followers,and approved that Muslims may do wrong as being human,and that Islam says that it's not reached by compulsion..Remember?!!!!!
So why UNCLE egypter repeated the story of this group in Palestine?!!!!!!!
Will we enter this circle?!!!!!!
OH,NO MR.EGYPETER IT'S NOT ISLAM,AND ACTS OF SOME MUSLIMS DON'T REPRESENT ISLAM.
BUT MO. THEY FORCED THEM TO CONVERT ISLAM SO ISLAM FORCE NON-MULIMS TO BE MULIMS.
NO,NO,NO YOU MUST NOTICE THAT ISLAM SAYS THAT THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION,AND THAT MUSLIMS MAY DO WRONG,AND NOT EVEY MUSLIM REPRESENT ISLAM,BUT JUST ISLMAIC TEACHINGS REPRESENTS ISLAM……………….BLA BLA BLA.
Is it good Neferteeti?!!!!!! Do you think that it's a good way of discussion?!!!! Sorry,Do you think that it's even a discussion?!!!!!!
They asked for my sources,and when I gave them the sources they didn't see them.So,Is it a way of discussion?!!!!!
I told them about the reality, and when they heard it,they repeated the case which we've discussed.

Where is my anger,hurt and confusion?!!!!!
I was so calm,I didn't revile,I didn't used bad language,I didn't insult any body,I didn't get near to sacred things,did I hurt you,or any other body?!!!!
And don't you remember your comment on our way of discussion(Between me and Mr.David),was it;"It's a good way of discussion between two persons from different backgrounds"?!!!!!
So what changed now?!!!!

And if this was your way to deal with anger,so why didn't you sarcasm from Egypeter who directed reviles to Muslims?!!!!!!
I'm afraid to say it,but,Is this because he is Christian?!!!!
Being biased is towards your religion,not faults of its follwers.

And if you want to learn a better way to deal with anger(if it existed),learn from Islam;It says:

"46. And dispute ye not with the People of the Book,except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." 29:46

If you noticed;
Allah firstly order us to dispute just by the best ways and the most calm ways without reviling,insulting their beliefs or lowing the other side,
As for who aren't disputing calmly (angrily) we should leave them,and don't dispute with them,becasue disputation then will be destructive not constructive,and will bring up hatred and despite,
And finally we should tell them about our unity and that we believe in what was sent to them and that we have One God.

It's a message for unity and love,not separation and hatred.

So,what is better;to create hatred and despite,or love and respect between us

And is this a logical and more rational way of discussion than facing the bad by the bad?!!!!!

I think that we're good away from your friends who didn't know how to discuss,and what is the civilized way of discussion between two of different backgrounds.

Any way,I remind you of our basic discussion which I'm truly waiting for your reply not this discussion which I didn't want any reply from you.

Till we meet again there,
Best wishes,

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi all,

Just before leaving, Neferteeti friends,I'd like to have some comments about a constructive way of discussion.

*Not because I differ with you in beliefs so I'm the enemy.

*Not because I differ with you in beliefs so all my words are fakes.

*You must hear the other side , if you want him to hear you.

*You must see what the other side source is talking about,he isn't giving it for a good view but to be seen.

*Don't revile,Don't insult others beliefs.

*Don't repeat yourself,Don't get back to the same point.

*Don't deal as a foolish ,Don't act as a forgetter.

*Not because the other side is saying that you have wrong beliefs,so he is insulting you and you mustn't hear from him, whenever he provide his issue without insults,and you should dispute with him calmly,and know what is his evidences.

*Through civilized discussions,you provide your sources and evidences whether built on science,logical thinking or facts,and the other side provides sources and evidences built in same things, and whether both sides convince each other or not,but they end it as friends not enemies.

*Finally;a civilized way of discussions holds all meanings of exchanged respect,and the will of reaching the truth,not exchanging reviles and insulting both sides sacred beliefs.

If you consider me a friend,so it's a friend's advice.
If you consider me an enemy,so you must listen to the enemy's critic.
If you consider me non of these,so read these advices as neutral advices of a good way of discussion between two of different beliefs.

Peace for all peace-loving,

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

If you all would, please take a look at this video clip on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMs5KADEty4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsallybishai%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F

Bent, I'm sure you'll find it especially interesting and Mohammed, I'm sure you will give me a verse in the Qur'an.

Do some people have no soul or heart?!

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Here's a link to further information on the situation of this poor girl.

http://saraghorab.wordpress.com/2006/09/01/kidnapped-an-sos-for-mona-yacoub/

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

Mohamed said "when a religion has many followers(not by birth but conviction) so it's a proof that its conditions fits more number of people,so it's generally right.
And if it's not important;why you deny the fact that Islam is widely spreaded?!!!!"

Huh !!!
Naive, misguided or blinded by "faith"....
Whatever....

How can one argue with THAT screwed up "mentality" that's based on numbers (as in herd)

Many followers = conditions fits more number of people = so it's generally right

What a simplistic flawed way of "thinking".

Ugghh why do I even bother ??

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

*Is out of logic that God know that a thing *Is out of logic that God know that a thing is harmful and don't order man not to get close to it?!!!!Sure not,but science proved that beers and pig are harmful for a man,but I didn't see a verse in Bible ordering not to eat or drink them.

Mohammed:
You didn't ask me if pork and beer were prohibited for me; you made the above statement, which I answered by supplying several Biblical citations. Those citations also, incidentally, answered the question you apparently expected me to telepathically divinate from your ramblings and explained why this was the case. Please refer to the citation from Acts if you are unsure of my meaning.

I am trying to be patient, and deal with the statements you make in a Biblical and historical context, but my patience only goes so far. If you want to discuss religion with me, I advise you to organize your thoughts, sort out what is religion from what is your own personal idiosyncracy, and don't try to change the question when you don't like my answer. Unlike yourself, I do not have all kinds of time to waste churning out reams of nonsense and if your intent is to lead me into roundabouts, I won't play that game.

For your information, quite a few cultures around the world eat some raw meat; I understand that in some parts of China raw pork is a delicacy. Furthermore, farm-raised pork is not fed garbage; if it wasn't perfectly clear in my comment, I was giving a historical context for the prohibition.

Your verses are interesting, but fail to answer my question. What is the Qu'ranic rationale for not consuming pork and beer? 'Just don't do it' doesn't explain that. I know what the rationale is for the Levitical prohibitions and for the lifting of those prohibitions; I explained them in my comment. Why was your rule instituted?

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

cminor said "What is the Qu'ranic rationale for not consuming pork and beer?"
I'd volunteer an answer.
The Qur'an contains lots of do's and don't's that sometimes fail the test of logic
eg There is a verse that effectively says, when someone drops in on a gathering and asks for room to sit amongst those gathered, then "make room for him" orders the "Holy Qur'an" !!!!
In addition, when Islam's Prophet Mohamed had some "personal" issues, verses of the Qur'an were duly "delivered" dealing with those issues, and some of them were WILD !! and as far as alcohol was concerned it's rumored he could not hold his liquor. As to prohibition of pork, I refer you the Old Testament where certain parts of the Qur'an have uncanny resemblence of, including that prohibition

Finally, it's ironic that a discussion with one Muslim took the limelight of the poor buthered Hani Sarofim...

سبتمبر 02, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Thanks, Red--Actually I wanted to see if Mohamed could give me an answer. I apologize for my part in getting us off-topic; it's true that this post was about a brutal hate crime and shouldn't have gone off on dietary issues. But since Mohamed seems to want to turn everything, no matter how bad it makes his religion look, into an evangelization opportunity, I thought I'd deal with some of his claims. I'll look over the comments and post anything else I want to bring up at my blog; I'll let y'all know when I've got it up.
Fair 'nough?

سبتمبر 03, 2006  
Blogger Law Student said...

Egypeter asserted:

"along with their world view of a muslim califphate. Remember, "there's no compulsion in religion" but they aspire for the entire world to submit to allah. That's why every muslim, our friend mohammed included, is so preoccupied with the number of converts."

Once upon a time there were caliphates governing certain regions of the world. The last caliphate to govern was that of the Ottomans, nearly 100 years ago.

The Second Coming of Jesus the Messiah will establish Gods Kingdom of Heaven. Hopefully Christians and Muslims will forget being at each others necks under his governance.

Muslims don't aspire for the whole world to submit to Allah. But Christians do aspire for the whole world to do so for Jesus. Probably for this reason, that is why you have dozens of Missionary groups sent all over the world. Mainly to those countries in need of aid.

"Every Muslim"...Your fellow gypo Mohamed is in no way "every muslim".

سبتمبر 03, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

"Every Muslim"...Your fellow gypo Mohamed is in no way "every muslim".

Of course, you're right student. I shouldn't have generalized and said "every muslim" I should've said, "many many muslims." And in regards to Mohammed, I'm afraid his specific views are shared by many Egyptians unfortunately. And as such, the mideast is doomed.

سبتمبر 05, 2006  

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