الجمعة، يوليو 21، 2006

The Power of the Common Cause- The Free Copts

The power of the common cause

Written by Neferteeti,
The Free Copts
Friday, 14 July 2006


Ask any Egyptian who grew up in the 30s or 40s and they’ll tell you that they did not experience sectarian tension in Egypt as we know it today. Many of them observe horrific events like Imbaba, El Kosheh or Udayssat and simply ask “what happened to us?"

Please see HERE for the full article.

24 Comments:

Blogger Desmond said...

أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.

يوليو 21, 2006  
Blogger Law Student said...

The Coptic population of Egypt have a right to hate there Muslim counterparts. For a long time the Copts have been treated as second class citizens by the mainly Muslim dominated government. If only the Muslims in Egypt were Islamic.

يوليو 21, 2006  
Blogger Law Student said...

In the year 628, the Monks of the St Catherine Monastery in Mount Sinai were given the following Charter of Priviliges by Prophet Mohammed. This is what it reads:

"This is a message from Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the Muslim community is to disobey this covenant till the Last Day(end of the world)--Muhammad(saw)"

The above is Prophet Mohammed's, and indeed Islam's, stance on Jews and Christians. So if any Muslim government or group in authority doesnt apply those principle set out above, then those Muslims aren't following Islam. They may be Muslims, but not Islamic.

Moving on to the Copts; apparently Egypt's government is a Muslim government. Fair enough. There behaviour towards the Copts tends to be unislamic. Therefore, the Copts shouldn't feel that they are ill treated by Islam. Islam and Muslim are two different concepts.

يوليو 21, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hi Law Student

Thanks for your comment. From reading your comment I get the feeling you are not Egyptian...perhaps never lived in an Arab country? I could of course be wrong but this is what I summed up.

The treaty or charter you cited sounds really good!! Great in fact! with the following exceptions:

+ As far as I know, Egypt was not invaded by the Arab?islamic armies until after the death of prophet Mohammed. It was during the rule of Khailph Othman Ibn Affan that the Arabs took control of Egypt.


+ Regardless of whether he wrote or Othman wrote...you do realise this was a treaty written centuries ago? It doesn't by any means prove that injustice doesn't happen today...in the name of Islam. (also the history of how the Arabs invaded Egypt is a pretty bloody one...but thats besides the point)

As an example...Christian teachings consistantly speak of love, forgiveness and peace. Even to your own enemy!! Jesus never told anyone to fight, or kill.

Yet the Crusaders took the holy cross as their symbol...and the Spaniards carried out the attrocious inquisition crimes in the name of the Church.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

If I had lived in the time of the Inquisition, and heard about the Jews getting tortured so they would denounce their faith...and I simply just said "oh well, not my responsibility. My Bible says to be good, loving, forgiving, and pray for my enemy....these Sapniards must be Un-Christians"

Do you think a Jewish person would find this acceptable?

If Islam preaches love and tolerance...why is there a sweeping advance of fundamentalist thought in the Muslim world?

More importantly, why aren't those peaceful tolerant messages being taught to Muslims themselves?

Why do we only hear them directed at the Western world and at the non Muslim minorities living in the Muslim world...as proof that Islam is really a good religion?

Basically, as a non Muslim, I don't really care what's Islamic or not Islamic. That's not my concern or responsibility.

I do however know that the guys who tortured the Christians of Al Kosheh did so because the victims were Christian

The gangs that attacked the worshippers of Udayssat...attacked, ransacked and burnt a church

What about the guy who stormed into a church and killed a Christian man while he prayed

What about the thugs who kidnap and Islamise our young girls?

The list goes on my friend. I for one don't blame all Muslims for these crimes. That would be ridiculous. But it isn't my fault those thugs advertise that their actions are in the name of Islam.

يوليو 21, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Finally
I'd like to clarify that as a Christian I don't hate Muslims...the good or the bad Mulsims. As I do not hate any of God's creation.

Law Student, the issue is not that Copts make it a religious problem...it is first and foremost that the fundamentalist Muslims already made it a religious problem when they decided to fight all that is not Muslim proclaiming it is God's will!!!

Forgive me for the lengthy reply.
God Bless
:)

يوليو 21, 2006  
Blogger Law Student said...

"I get the feeling you are not Egyptian...perhaps never lived in an Arab country?"

I'm not an Arab. Haven't been to an Arab country. Been here all my life.

"+ As far as I know, Egypt was not invaded by the Arab?islamic armies until after the death of prophet Mohammed. It was during the rule of Khailph Othman Ibn Affan that the Arabs took control of Egypt.


+ Regardless of whether he wrote or Othman wrote...you do realise this was a treaty written centuries ago? It doesn't by any means prove that injustice doesn't happen today...in the name of Islam. (also the history of how the Arabs invaded Egypt is a pretty bloody one...but thats besides the point)"

There is no one version of history.

"As an example...Christian teachings consistantly speak of love, forgiveness and peace. Even to your own enemy!! Jesus never told anyone to fight, or kill."

Not necessarily. See:
2 Chronicles 15:13
Numbers 31:17-18
Numbers 13:26-28
1 Samuel 17:46
Matthew 10:34-36
Luke 12:49,51-53
Luke 14:26

"If Islam preaches love and tolerance...why is there a sweeping advance of fundamentalist thought in the Muslim world?"

They are most likely not following the religion properly.

"why aren't those peaceful tolerant messages being taught to Muslims themselves"

They are.

"Basically, as a non Muslim, I don't really care what's Islamic or not Islamic. That's not my concern or responsibility."

Well that's sad. Because, when you see something bad being committed by a Muslim/Muslims, then your mind will automatically associate the deed and view it as the teachings of Islam.

Well it is sad that your fellow Copts have been persecuted. Christian's have throughout history treated Muslim's as shit; and Muslim's have also treated Christians like wise.

"But it isn't my fault those thugs advertise that their actions are in the name of Islam."

Well if you would "care" to know what the difference between Islam and Muslim is, then you would know how evil and wrong their actions are and they're far from being Islamic.

"the issue is not that Copts make it a religious problem...it is first and foremost that the fundamentalist Muslims already made it a religious problem when they decided to fight all that is not Muslim proclaiming it is God's will!!!"

What do you mean a Fundamentalist Muslim? Some one who practises the fundamentals of Islam? Well i adopt the 10 commandments and the cornerstone teachings of Islam, does that make me a fundamentalist?

Am i correct to say the Orthodox Church which encouraged the Seberinica was due to the Christians making it a religous problem?

يوليو 21, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Dear Law Student
Before I go any further, there is a correction i need to make. I mentioned it was Khaliphe Othman Ibn Affan who was ruling when the Arabs invaded Egypt. It was actually Omar Ibn ElKhattab.

_________________

I'll try to clarify my point of view on this...
you are a law student, right? So imagine if you will, a crime has been committed. Someone murdered his neighbour for example.

The law says murder is a crime.

What good does it do for the killer's family, or even the police to sit the victim's family down and say:
"but its not the fault of the law. the law already says murder is a crime. this guy obviously has no respect for the law"

So?

In other words, don;t preach the victims about the greatness of Islam. Concentrate on preaching those who commit the crime.


There is no one version of history.

Does this mean you don't trust historical accounts of anything?
Taking this logic, I also disregard your or anyone else's claims that Islamic invasion of other countries was carried out with minimal aggression.

Whats good for the goose!

Well that's sad. Because, when you see something bad being committed by a Muslim/Muslims, then your mind will automatically associate the deed and view it as the teachings of Islam.

That would probably be more a result of the fact that person is yelling "Allah Akbar", than it is a result of my lack of understanding of Islam.


Well if you would "care" to know what the difference between Islam and Muslim is, then you would know how evil and wrong their actions are and they're far from being Islamic.

A little something most Muslim guests take for granted, is the fact I have grown in Egypt and studied Islam over there as well as later on in my life in Australia.

And before you assume my "version" of Islam has been corrupted by biased "evangelical" sources...I learnt Islam from Muslim people and make sure I only go back to explanations of Quran, Hadith and Sunna which are approved by Muslim scholars themselves.


What do you mean a Fundamentalist Muslim?

This is what we Egyptians call radical groups...extremists. Probably not them most accurate representation, you are correct...but it is what I grew up hearing them called in Egyptian media. So what I mean is people who adopt Bin Laden's or Zarqawy's principals for example.

Not necessarily. See:
2 Chronicles 15:13
Numbers 31:17-18
Numbers 13:26-28
1 Samuel 17:46
Matthew 10:34-36
Luke 12:49,51-53
Luke 14:26


Each of these verses has a meaning far from the meaning you allude to. It's too bad you decided to opt out of a discussion on the Bible earlier. This could have been a fruitful discussion.


Am i correct to say the Orthodox Church which encouraged the Seberinica was due to the Christians making it a religous problem?

I don't really know too much detail on this one...and so I'll have to refrain from offering an opinion. In the absence of understanding the issue, my opinion would be purely biased!

يوليو 22, 2006  
Blogger Law Student said...

"a crime has been committed. Someone murdered his neighbour for example.
The law says murder is a crime.
What good does it do for the killer's family, or even the police to sit the victim's family down and say:
"but its not the fault of the law. the law already says murder is a crime. this guy obviously has no respect for the law"
So?
In other words, don;t preach the victims about the greatness of Islam. Concentrate on preaching those who commit the crime."

If your using that lame scenario as a platform to compare the concept of being Muslim with being Islamic; it is very illogical. Think about it. How exactly did the above make sense to you? Are you going to say the Law is evil and bad because some lunatic committed murder? Ahem. Way to go Bent.

"Does this mean you don't trust historical accounts of anything?"

Working in the science industry, i would assume you haven't undertaken any history at a tertiary level. Well let me school you Bent. There is no set standard for "Historical accounts". For example, there are many different "historical accounts" of the holocaust. Historical events aren't unanimously agreed on. There are different versions.

"Each of these verses has a meaning far from the meaning you allude to. It's too bad you decided to opt out of a discussion on the Bible earlier. This could have been a fruitful discussion."

Bent, i have probably attended Bible School more than you would ever have. There is only one meaning to them. Those verses aren't stripped bare out of their context (as many Bible bashers do with Quranic verses). Read the verses before and after them, and the footnotes and you would come to understand that the Bible isn't the romantic novel you make it out to be.

"you are a law student, right?"

Yes i am. Therefore, dont try arguing with a law student. You will fail with mediocre. Save a shred of dignity.

God Bless you too. And i hope the Copts get equal rights as other Egyptians.

يوليو 22, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Law Student -

You are nothing more than another typical MUSLIM APOLOGIST that I keep running into on the internet. LOL.

Bent you are terrific.

Don't mind the personal attacks that she casually slips in here and there during the thread. Another common denominator I find with all other muslim apologists.

There were several points that just made me chuckle as I read through them.

-Like that ridiculous speech about how incredibly tolerant and peaceful Islam is that was written in, what year was it? Oh yeah 628. I'm sure Egyptian muslims in 2006 have it memorized, right? I'm sure this is what the Sheikhs in Egypt talk about during their Friday sermons, right? I'm sure they never mention the "Sons of Pigs and Monkey's" that I always hear about, right?

-So if any Muslim government or group in authority doesnt apply those principle set out above, then those Muslims aren't following Islam. They may be Muslims, but not Islamic.

* I love this argument *

So MUSLIMS acting in the name of ISLAM may be MUSLIM but they are not ISLAMIC. LOL! According to who? So is Bin Laden not a "Muslim" or not "Islamic?" What about the other countless fundementalists (do you now understand what this word means?) that are running around screaming "Allahu Akbar" and "Jihad?" Would they tell you that they are not muslims or that they're unislamic? Yah, right! You're probably the one they view as not Islamic.

-"Bent, i have probably attended Bible School more than you would ever have. There is only one meaning to them. Those verses aren't stripped bare out of their context (as many Bible bashers do with Quranic verses). Read the verses before and after them, and the footnotes and you would come to understand that the Bible isn't the romantic novel you make it out to be."

Are "Bible Bashers", as you put it, similar to Quran Qrazies? Something also tells me your knowledge of the Holy Bible is not equal to that of Bents. Actually, I'm pretty sure you are an imbicile when it comes to the Bible. If you're so knowledgable about the Bible why don't YOU tell us what those verses mean or at least what the Imam told you they meant! Or better yet take up Bent on the discussion that she proposed? Hmmm...

-"Working in the science industry, i would assume you haven't undertaken any history at a tertiary level. Well let me school you Bent. There is no set standard for "Historical accounts". For example, there are many different "historical accounts" of the holocaust. Historical events aren't unanimously agreed on. There are different versions."

Wow, you've taken history at a TERTIARY LEVEL?? Damn, I guess your knowledge of history is better than Bent's. Maybe only YOU know the truth and the rest of us are just idiots.

Are you another one of those muslim Holocaust deniers...because that would explain a lot.
There are many different "historical accounts" of the Holocaust? Huh? What? No there isn't! 6 million Jews were wiped out by the Nazis...you wanna give me a different version of history??

And here's another HISTORICAL FACT for you, Student...

Islam spread by the sword. PERIOD.

Wait, let me repeat that for you. Islam spread by the sword!

While Christianity spread through the peace of it's message Islam spread through mostly forced conversions of the lands they conqured. There isn't much disputing this fact as it is really universally recognized, except amongst muslims of course. Go goodle it for yourself and read using that "tertiary level" education of yours. Go "wikipedia" the Ottoman Empire and read about the atrocities they commited in the name of Islam...but they may not really have been Islamic, they were probably just muslims.

Oh and by the way, great article Neferteeti. God bless you dear.

Peace

يوليو 22, 2006  
Blogger Carolanne said...

Great article, Bent!
And thanks for adding me as a good mate of the blog - I'm flattered. :)

يوليو 22, 2006  
Blogger Law Student said...

"You are nothing more than another typical MUSLIM APOLOGIST that I keep running into on the internet. LOL."

Muslim apologist? get real.

"Sons of pigs and monkeys"

Egypeter, well if those sheikhs say that it is wrong. Church leaders are just as wrong. A year or two ago in Australia, we had a Church leader that spent his whole life vilifying the Muslim population of Australia. Im sure there are plenty more, if not as much, Church priests and ministers who ill mouth muslims as the sheikhs do to christians.

"So MUSLIMS acting in the name of ISLAM may be MUSLIM but they are not ISLAMIC. LOL! According to who? So is Bin Laden not a "Muslim" or not "Islamic?"

Well its according to the absolute majority of the Muslims. You're very incorrect. The point of your whole argument is: Muslims are all violent people and Islam is a violent religion. Meaning that the 1.2 billion plus muslims are all the same. Sorry, Muslim aren't a monolith. Add up all the number of lunatics who go blow themseves up. You wont get a million.

"Something also tells me your knowledge of the Holy Bible is not equal to that of Bents."

Did the Messiah whisper this into you ear?

"Maybe only YOU know the truth and the rest of us are just idiots."

If you want to think about it in that way.

"Are you another one of those muslim Holocaust deniers...because that would explain a lot."

I find holocaust denial personal offensive. Well, the concept of historical accounts is very simple. One version is that 6 million Jews were killed. This is supported with relevant primary and secondary sources. Other versions bring it down to 4, 3, and even 2. Again, theyre also supported by primary and secondary sources. Another version claims that the holocaust didnt even happen and the jews werent singled out. This is known as holocaust denial, and again they rely on primary and secondary sources.

"And here's another HISTORICAL FACT for you, Student...

Islam spread by the sword. PERIOD.

Wait, let me repeat that for you. Islam spread by the sword!"

Well that is one version of history. It isn't unanimously agreed upon. There are dozens of historians from the christian faith who deny it. Indonesia is the most populated muslim country. Which army of Muslims were sent there to spread islam by the sword?

"While Christianity spread through the peace of it's message"

Again, thats one version. There are even more historians from the christian faith who deny this.

Egypeter you're a character. What i see of you is a gypo with many mental complexes who was probably brutally assaulted sexually by one of your church leaders. Paedophilia is becoming wide spread in the church heirarchy. Why? because the poor church authorities are thinking that theyll meet the christ if they enact the numerous, extensively pornographic scenes in the bible. Extremely ill educated (thats why your in real estate, didnt make it to university?) Very vicious of a character gypo.

يوليو 22, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Ok, let's see. Which point to laugh at first. Hmmm, so many to choose from.

Let me make it clear to you first that I do not have a problem with muslims. I never have and never will.

But when you talk to me about secondary and tertiary sources about the spread of Islam, I think your full of shit. Just google it for god's sake, it's right here on the internet.

Find me a non-muslim historian that has said Islam DIDN'T spread by the sword. This is why the WHOLE civillized world is starting to wake up to Islam Law Student. You should be able to clearly see it as Islam is abhored by the people of your country and mine. France too, they're starting to legislate against it because they see how aggressive Islam is, as HISTORY point out to us. The whole of Western Europe is getting fed up as well. So you can see, it's not just me Student.

Muslims love to talk about the misdeeds of some priests. You get a kick out of that don't you? It's funny to me to when I hear this criticism coming from a religion where their own prophet was a pedophile! How old was Aisha? So you should probably check the speck in YOUR own eye before you worry about others.

"The point of your whole argument is: Muslims are all violent people and Islam is a violent religion. Meaning that the 1.2 billion plus muslims are all the same. Sorry, Muslim aren't a monolith. Add up all the number of lunatics who go blow themseves up. You wont get a million."

I never said all muslims are the same. And no I don't think all muslims strap bombs to themselves either. But when you look at all of the world's terrorist acts...what's the common denominator? Come on Student, use that brain of yours that you love talking about so much. What's the answer?

*drum roll please*

They are just about all M-U-S-L-I-M-S. Yes they are. YOU may not consider them "muslims" or "islamic" but they sure are dear.

Just look at all of the current global conflicts. Do you find another common denominator Student? Yes, once again, they are all Muslims. Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Kashmir, Iran, etc... All the world's problems revolve around Islam. Try explaining that one to me. What are you gonna tell me? They're not muslims?

And then of course, my favorite:

"Egypeter you're a character. What i see of you is a gypo with many mental complexes who was probably brutally assaulted sexually by one of your church leaders. Paedophilia is becoming wide spread in the church heirarchy. Why? because the poor church authorities are thinking that theyll meet the christ if they enact the numerous, extensively pornographic scenes in the bible. Extremely ill educated (thats why your in real estate, didnt make it to university?) Very vicious of a character gypo."

I'm more happy to inform you that I have a Bachelor of Science in Molecular Biology from Purdue University. Lol. You ugly bitch! I'm in Real Estate because I make more cash than you ever will :) Cheers!

I was sexually abused, huh? If you were just a little bit closer to me I would love to PIMP SLAP that hijab right off your head.

You speak of pedophilia. And, once again, is that the same pedophilia that your prophet practiced or is it a little different? Oh wait, it was for the good of the Muslim Ummah that Mohammad deflowered a baby. Haha, busted, you hypocrite.

يوليو 23, 2006  
Blogger Law Student said...

Paedophilia in the bible:
Numbers 31:17-18
Numbers 31:35-40
(EEEEWWWWWWWWWWW...what the fuck?!)

Three year old girls raped by christian patriarchs. (PS Aisha wasnt three. She was mature at 11).

Every problem in the world may evolve aroud muslims. true. who started it all? nations with christian majorities. which country is the only country to have massacred 500 000 people using atom bombs with ongoing genetic problems till today? a christian country? which country went to iraq in the pretext that saddam was an evil bastard and had wmds which the world hasnt seen till today? a christian nation. which country is supporting the israeli regime at the cost of palestinian blood? a christian nation. which country came to australia and annihilated its indigenous population? a christian nation. which country went to canada and america and annihilated the indians? a christian nation. muslims may be in a bad situation today. but christians have more blood on there hands you cunt. whatever the hell are you doing in america? a refugee? how low can you get. go to the whole you come from. bang your mum, and sister, and finger your 3 year old daughter as taught in the bible. if all copts are bastards like you, hosni mobarak should give you guys a good ass whipping. you probably had your dads bell end hitting your anus when you were 3 too. sorry, its a fact with christian arabs. wooooooottttttttt. dont bother replying you son of a bitch.

يوليو 23, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

LOW student !! said "how low can you get. go to the whole you come from"- you know f... all about "law", language or logic. With a future lawyer !!! like you, who needs crims. You scum you make us all sick, what a well earned "compliment" for a Muslim bastard like you- You and Islam are ideal companions for each other

يوليو 23, 2006  
Anonymous غير معرف said...

Law, Egypeter, and Red --> You are all insane. I am an Arab, born to a Coptic Egyptian father and Orthodox Lebanese mother.

What happened to me when i said to them that God doesn't exist and i dont want to be a Christian? Dad threw a cup in my face and Mum kicked me out of the house. My brothers called me a bitch and a whore. And my sister called me filth.

What happened to my cousin when she fell in love with a Muslim boy? Her family taunted her and called her a traitor.

My family is prominent and active in Sydney's Arab Christian Community. They're as bad as Muslims.

Monotheism is false. Christianity and Islam have split mankind more than anything else. Religion is the worst divider amongst mankind.

Fuck Christianity.
Fuck my Copt family who exiled me and my cousin.
Fuck Islam.
Viva Humanism and Human Intellect!!!

يوليو 23, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Hmmm...Under 'net protocol, wouldn't a reductio ad pedophilium automatically invalidate all prior statements made by the poster?

Your replies were well stated as usual; it's too bad some visitors don't seem to be able to debate without falling into illogic and ad hominems.

يوليو 24, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Excuse me,
that 'your replies' was of course directed to Bent.
I knew giving up the typewriter was a bad idea.

After reading this series of comments,
Bent, I expect you'll need a little levity. A suggestion:
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/006959.php

It even addresses that 'not peace but division' quote that seems to be so popular with some commenters!

يوليو 24, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Bent:
A few clarifications:
1) The Crusades were a belated (2 centuries) response to retake Christians lands that the Moslems conquered. Yeah there were atrocities but when there were peaceful times, the Moslem chroniclers freaked out because the Crusaders traeted their Moslem subjects humanely. That led some of the chronichlers to come up
2) On the Spanish inqusition, there's been a lot of exaggeration. You need to take into account a few factors:
3) It was a papal concession to the Spanish kings because unlike the other European countries at the time, there were Jews and Moslems. The inquistion was there to ensure that the converts didn't apostize as well as to keep an eye on the Moslems (until the mid 1500s) there was a sizeable Moslem minority in Valencia. They were the orange and fruit growers.
4) compared to the secular justice system of the time, the inquistorial courts prohibited tourture and didn't allow condemnation to the galleys. So inquistorial justice was mild.
5) comapred to the witch hunts in the Germanies, the Spanish inqusition only executed 5 or so people. Yeah too much but when compared to what happened in the Germanies in the late 1500s, that's a remarkedly low execution rate.

Great comments as always :)

يوليو 24, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hi everyone
If I’d known what I was missing by being away from the blog I would have given up sleep to catch up :)

So entertaining Law Student!

Are you sure you are actually a law student? Because for a law student you are remarkably unable to maintain a discussion without turning it into a personal attack on those you disagree with!

If your using that lame scenario as a platform to compare the concept of being Muslim with being Islamic; it is very illogical. Think about it. How exactly did the above make sense to you? Are you going to say the Law is evil and bad because some lunatic committed murder? Ahem. Way to go Bent.

I was trying to say no such thing!!! I was actually, if you took the time to read my comment properly, agreeing with exactly what you are saying.

In response to your and most other moderate Muslims preaching to us non Muslim about the beauty, tolerance and peace in Islam…I was making the point that your claims are wasted on us and would probably be better directed to those who adopt extremist Islamic thought.



Well let me school you Bent.
I have probably attended Bible School more than you would ever have.


Please mate!!! Arrogance, whilst a trait of many in your future profession, is very unbecoming! (so is profane language by the way ;p)


Listen, I have stated to you before that your participation is most welcome. However I will ask you to refrain from insulting my faith.

I ask you this, but if you do insist on continuing to hurl insults at my faith, Bible and church I will not delete your comments or kick up any fuss…God forbid I should prevent you portraying yourself an intolerant, biased and arrogant “lawyer”! Besides, it IS most entertaining.



Yes i am. Therefore, dont try arguing with a law student. You will fail with mediocre. Save a shred of dignity.

You know, a wise man (or woman) once said:
“Never argue with an idiot!! They’ll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience”

Perhaps I shouldn’t have discussed anything with you after all!

يوليو 24, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Anonymous

Welsome and thanks for your contribution. I’m sorry that your experience with faith hasn’t been a positive one.

Although religious myself, I believe that we all are free to make our own choices in matters of faith. Faith is a deeply personal relationship with God…if it ain’t there…it ain’t there! You can’t force it.

I salute your honsety and refusal to live a lie. Not so sure about your language though ;)

يوليو 24, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

And to save the best for last ;)

Pete
Good to see you Pete :)
You know what? You ARE a character…a great character, and that’s why we love you! LOL.

Carolanne
Are you kidding? Of course you are a good mate of this blog …thanks fpr stopping by.

Cminor
Thanks for the clarification. I did think you directed that compliment to Law Student.

Red
I missed your comments Red!!! Good to see ya again.

Xavier
Thanks for your comments Xav! I was just trying to show our good friend that the presence of peaceful teachings in Islam doesn’t change the reality of the pain and suffering of non Muslims in Islamic societies. But point well made as always :)

يوليو 24, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

Hey Bent!

Nice to hear from you too! It's really quite thoughtful how you kindly respond to everybody that posts. One of the many reasons why I love visiting.

I apologize to you if I get a little carried away in my discussions...but, as you know, I can't handle idiocy. Open, well-intention, friendly debate I have no problem wih but when insults start flying I get pissed.

Anyway, I hope Law Student reads this article I just found. It's a story about someone in your neck of the woods. Quite uplifting.

http://www.limaohio.com/story.php?IDnum=27795

I think it would serve her good to have an audience with this individual.

يوليو 25, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

I am adding this as an FYI, just because I think some clarification is needed on Biblical verses listed above:

I must say, it never occurred to me that the ancient Hebrews might be in the business of debauching 3-year-old girls. Of course, as even among many ancient cultures the sexual abuse of prepubescent girls seems to have been regarded as somewhat outre, I can't imagine why that image would have come to mind unless either the behavior were plainly described as such in the Biblical texts or I had a bit of an unhealthy fascination with the subject.

Although I am no Bible scholar, I am not entirely unfamiliar with Mosaic Law. It had always been my impression that the Law of Moses placed some of the strictest limitations on sexual excess of its time (cf. Lev. 20, 9-21.) It was also progressive for its day in that it gave a modicum of rights to women, Hebrew slaves, and even non-Hebrew slaves and battle captives. Refer, please, to:
Lev. 19: 20-22 which declares the sexual abuse of a married female slave a sin requiring atonement;
Deut. 21: 10-14, which gives non-Hebrew female battle captives a period of mourning before they can be taken advantage of by their captors and moreover grants them a degree of status as legal wives (with the rights inherent therein) of their captors;
Deut. 22: 25ff. which offers some recourse against rape to women;
Deut. 23:16-18 which offer some protection to runaway slaves and prohibit the practice of temple harlotry;
Deut. 24: 14 which prohibits the defrauding of any slave, Hebrew or non-Hebrew and 17ff which defend the rights of orphans.
Thus even a female battle captive taken as a slave could claim some basic human rights.

While no reference to age is made and the terms 'women' and 'girls' tend to get used interchangeably ('girl' probably being applied specifically to a young woman who is a virgin) there is certainly nothing to indicate that prepubescent children were considered sexually exploitable under the law. References to children are pretty consistent in the Pentatecuch: children are not to be sacrificed to Molech (Lev. 20: 3-5--common practice among the Hebrews' near neighbors,) and orphans (i.e. children who do not have a parent to protect them) are not to be abused. Period. (Deut. 24: 17 and 28: 19.)

Now, a little context for Numbers 31: 13ff. If you go back to Num. 25, you will find the roots of the conflict. The Moabites and Midianites worshipped a fertility god called Baal. Some of their rites probably included full-scale bacchanals, and some Hebrew men, allowing their brains to be ruled by their gonads, got caught up in these rites to the point at which they posed a threat to their culture. Moses raised an army to clean out that hornet's nest once and for all, and that army killed all adult males but kept "the women of the Midianites with their little ones (note the distinction) as captives." Moses was enraged by this because, of course, the Midianite women were the cause of all the trouble to begin with, and ordered the slaughter of all male children (not nice, I know; but he probably saw them as a future fighting force against him) and all females who were not virgins (i.e. any female who was old enough to have participated in those fertility rituals--I will not speculate as to what constituted Midianite sexual maturity.) He then ordered that the remaining females be distributed as chattel with the rest of the booty from the battle. There is nothing in the account that would remotely suggest that girls as young as 3--or of any age, were then summarily ravished by their captors, and much in Mosaic Law that would indicate that this would not have been tolerated. [Note that although the Lord frequently speaks to Moses and instructs him on how to proceed throughout this chapter, in this case the order is cast as coming directly from Moses. It is not presented as any sort of divine injunction. Moreover, it is clear that Moses is uncomfortable with the idea of slaughtering noncombatants, as he also orders a period of ritual purification for the participants--with the idea, presumably, of staving off the wrath of God.]

I have used the New American Translation of the Bible as a resource for this. The helps section in the supplementary material notes that this translation is made from the original language sources with an effort to clarify obscure readings. The editorial staff consists of many Biblical and language scholars who are, I suspect, not in the business of bowdlerization and would be scandalized at the thought of doing so.

Thank you, Bent, for the opportunity to shed some light on this matter.

يوليو 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Pete;
Thanks mate. Of course I'll address everyone who comes along...well, at least once anyways :)

By the way our friend the Law Student is male not female.

Cminor
Thanks so much for your contribution and explanation of the verses. You are welcome to use this space anytime :)

يوليو 28, 2006  

إرسال تعليق

Links to this post:

إنشاء رابط

<< Home