More Belated Responses!!
Dear Mohammed
Here's the second (and final) installment of response to your comments/question:
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On the contrary we don’t believe we are better than they at all! I think David’s explanation was excellent. Salvation on the cross may have happened at a certain moment in time…but it is not bound by time. God is not bound by time, so an act of God (who saved un on the cross) can’t be bound by time. Just as He is eternal, His salvation is eternal and has saved all who obeyed Him and lived by His law with honesty and humility.
Jesus saved us from the effect of the original sin and reconciled the Heavens and the earth. He gave us a clean slate if you like…its up to us to keep it clean or otherwise.
Think of it this way:
My father gave me a beautiful car and told me not to drive down a certain highway because it’s known to be dangerous.
I go there anyway…and whaddya know? I have an accident!!! I’m OK, but my beautiful new car is no longer beautiful…dinted and scratched everywhere.
I apologise to dad and he accepts my apology…I promise to listen to him from now on.
What happens to the car? I can’t afford to fix it!
Dad, because he is kind and loves me to death, fixes the car for me.
Now I have my beautiful new car looking every bit as beautiful as ever.
Whose responsibility is it now to keep it beautiful and look after it?
Mine!!
It is now up to me to be careful…to listen to dad’s advice…to keep away from danger.
Of course, the above example is not an exact match for the need for salvation to free us from sin…but I do hope it helps clarify the issue.
I think that God must be the Most Powerful,as a result when He want to cerate man by a nature,there is not any power which can change this desire.And regarding this belief,I can imagine if God asked a man before Jesus coming;Why you did this sin?So he will reply:It's not my sin,my creation have a fault!!
Yes God is most powerful…yet sin exists. The concept of sin exists in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I’m not sure what you are asking, because if you are questioning how sin exists in God’s creation then you would be questioning your own belief as well.
because Islam tells you to organize and resist-not kill-this lust and you'll paid by entering paradise,and if you didn't resist it so you'll be punished,if you replied the call of lust (by your free will)you'll be punished(in case you didn't repent),and if you replied the call of charity and good(by your free will)so you'll take the good retribution.
Again, I don’t understand what you mean by “organise and resist”. Christianity doesn’t expect us to “kill” sin!!! Like I said sin exists in all walks of life. It is up to us to excerise our free will, strengthened by God’s love in our hearts to keep away…to refuse being dragged into a sinful life.
What you say in that paragraph is exactly the same thing we believe: it’s up to us to choose!
Why?Because Islam is not related to any nationality,persons or people but it denotes submission and obedience to Allah.
Also, Christianity is not bound to one race or group of people. The salvation was meant for all creation…not bound by time or by race or place.
So,we don't deny Judaism and Christianity,but we believe that they're in their origin are right,but because the task of guarding Holy books of both of them have been put on shoulders of their followers so they have been corrupted,but as for Qur'an Allah Himself guarded it from being corrupted : " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). "15:9And look at Bible,and will find a lot of conflictions between all Bibles.
Three problems I have here:
1) God also says in the Bible that His word will not be altered:
35اَلسَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ تَزُولاَنِ وَلكِنَّ كَلاَمِي لاَ يَزُولُ
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:35
2) If God promises He will guard His word from corruption…how do you explain Him allowing Jews/Christians to corrupt it?
If the Almighty says “I will guard My word”…why didn’t He?
3) Now I don’t know about you, but I for one read the Bible. There are different translations…but there are no conflict in the meaning between the translations.
Also, I don’t understand what you mean by “Bibles”?? do you mean Gospels? Or translations of the Bible?
And if you know what these conflicts are, could you give us an example? Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning or you have been misinformed. We could certainly explain this to you and at the end, you may decide you still don’t like the explanation…or that it did indeed clarify it to you.
and I've been always asking myself;How Christianity by the belief in Trinity is respecting mind?!!This belief can't be reached by mind at all
Well actually it can! Many people throughout history believed in this faith whilst being very intelligent and well educated.
Perhaps you mean it cannot be accepted by YOUR mind? There is a difference here.
There are many things in Islam that I know MY intellect cannot accept. It doesn’t negate YOUR acceptance of them…it just means I don’t sccept them. But I can’t judge your intellect by my bias. Similarly you should not judge others faith and intellect by your own.
all prophets and messengers talked about the One God who have no son or wife.
We do not believe God has a wife either!!
God's nature is absolute and don't change by time,so if you thought about Trinity again you'll find that it existed after Jesus(in Christian belief)but before him there wasn't any Trinity.
God Has always existed…His nature doesn’t change…correct.
What has changed is our understanding of His nature.
The trinity has always existed Mohammed. The Gospel of St John the Apostle says:
1فِي الْبَدْءِ كَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ، وَالْكَلِمَةُ كَانَ عِنْدَ اللهِ، وَكَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ اللهَ. 2هذَا كَانَ فِي الْبَدْءِ عِنْدَ اللهِ. 3كُلُّ شَيْءٍ بِهِ كَانَ، وَبِغَيْرِهِ لَمْ يَكُنْ شَيْءٌ مِمَّا كَانَ. 4فِيهِ كَانَتِ الْحَيَاةُ، وَالْحَيَاةُ كَانَتْ نُورَ النَّاسِ، 5وَالنُّورُ يُضِيءُ فِي الظُّلْمَةِ، وَالظُّلْمَةُ لَمْ تُدْرِكْهُ
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
The word here refers to Jesus Christ as does the Quran too:
[171] O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs
Sura 4 verse 171
Now I know this verse opposes the trinity but note the reference to Jesus as the word of God which is the point I’m trying to make…how do you explain Jesus being “The word of God” yet different to God? God being eternal: ie. Not bound by time…His word is as eternal as He is.
Look, sorry I didn’t want to turn this into a debate. Our aim of this discussion is to clarify to you what we believe. I am well aware of the fact you do not believe in the trinity and have also read “tafseer” of the Quran regarding Jesus. So I’m not asking you to explain this verse to me. I’m merely using it to clarify a point.
In a way, I know what the verse means to you as a Muslim…I’m, just telling you what it means to me as a Christian.
+++
I'd like to direct your attention to an important point,when I say that Christian belief have faults I don't aim at irritating you but I just invite you to let your mind work,whether you find me right or wrong but just don't delete your mind.
Mohammed; I know you don’t mean offence, but I can’t help but feel offended at your assumption that we don’t understand what we believe.
For starters, how did you arrive at the conclusion that we don’t use our mind to understand our faith?
If its merely the result of your inability to comprehend Christian concepts then forgive me but this is arrogance. I said this before to Mohammed Meshref, it’s like me saying “Physicists don’t employ their intellect to understand physics” just because I don’t understand physics!
Also, what you know about Christianity may not necessarily be a correct representation of what we actually believe. Hence, this discussion we are having to clarify some concepts to you. Of course you may still see these concepts as unacceptable to you…that’s fine, I’m not here to convince you of anything.
Just be mindful of the fact that a bit of tolerance goes a long way. Don’t “delete” our right to believe and practice a faith that we see as every bit as acceptable and meaningful as you see your own faith.
God's Peace and Blessings Be With You
.
Here's the second (and final) installment of response to your comments/question:
+++
sons of prince were born away from the kingdom,but should they inherit hatred from the king?!
Just to clarify, we do not believe that God hated Adam and Eve at all, nor does He hate us. God was saddened by their sin but never hated them. God’s punishment is clearly spelt out to Adam:
17وَقَالَ لآدَمَ: «لأَنَّكَ سَمِعْتَ لِقَوْلِ امْرَأَتِكَ وَأَكَلْتَ مِنَ الشَّجَرَةِ الَّتِي أَوْصَيْتُكَ قَائِلاً: لاَ تَأْكُلْ مِنْهَا، مَلْعُونَةٌ الأَرْضُ بِسَبَبِكَ. بِالتَّعَبِ تَأْكُلُ مِنْهَا كُلَّ أَيَّامِ حَيَاتِكَ. 18وَشَوْكًا وَحَسَكًا تُنْبِتُ لَكَ، وَتَأْكُلُ عُشْبَ الْحَقْلِ. 19بِعَرَقِ وَجْهِكَ تَأْكُلُ خُبْزًا حَتَّى تَعُودَ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُخِذْتَ مِنْهَا. لأَنَّكَ تُرَابٌ، وَإِلَى تُرَابٍ تَعُودُ».
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Genesis 3:17
Just to clarify, we do not believe that God hated Adam and Eve at all, nor does He hate us. God was saddened by their sin but never hated them. God’s punishment is clearly spelt out to Adam:
17وَقَالَ لآدَمَ: «لأَنَّكَ سَمِعْتَ لِقَوْلِ امْرَأَتِكَ وَأَكَلْتَ مِنَ الشَّجَرَةِ الَّتِي أَوْصَيْتُكَ قَائِلاً: لاَ تَأْكُلْ مِنْهَا، مَلْعُونَةٌ الأَرْضُ بِسَبَبِكَ. بِالتَّعَبِ تَأْكُلُ مِنْهَا كُلَّ أَيَّامِ حَيَاتِكَ. 18وَشَوْكًا وَحَسَكًا تُنْبِتُ لَكَ، وَتَأْكُلُ عُشْبَ الْحَقْلِ. 19بِعَرَقِ وَجْهِكَ تَأْكُلُ خُبْزًا حَتَّى تَعُودَ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُخِذْتَ مِنْهَا. لأَنَّكَ تُرَابٌ، وَإِلَى تُرَابٍ تَعُودُ».
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Genesis 3:17
+++
On the contrary we don’t believe we are better than they at all! I think David’s explanation was excellent. Salvation on the cross may have happened at a certain moment in time…but it is not bound by time. God is not bound by time, so an act of God (who saved un on the cross) can’t be bound by time. Just as He is eternal, His salvation is eternal and has saved all who obeyed Him and lived by His law with honesty and humility.
+++
Is Adam's sin like your daily sins?
The original sin is not like the sins we may commit in our daily life (see explanation in the first post on this issue)
Jesus saved us from the effect of the original sin and reconciled the Heavens and the earth. He gave us a clean slate if you like…its up to us to keep it clean or otherwise.
Think of it this way:
My father gave me a beautiful car and told me not to drive down a certain highway because it’s known to be dangerous.
I go there anyway…and whaddya know? I have an accident!!! I’m OK, but my beautiful new car is no longer beautiful…dinted and scratched everywhere.
I apologise to dad and he accepts my apology…I promise to listen to him from now on.
What happens to the car? I can’t afford to fix it!
Dad, because he is kind and loves me to death, fixes the car for me.
Now I have my beautiful new car looking every bit as beautiful as ever.
Whose responsibility is it now to keep it beautiful and look after it?
Mine!!
It is now up to me to be careful…to listen to dad’s advice…to keep away from danger.
Of course, the above example is not an exact match for the need for salvation to free us from sin…but I do hope it helps clarify the issue.
+++
I think that God must be the Most Powerful,as a result when He want to cerate man by a nature,there is not any power which can change this desire.And regarding this belief,I can imagine if God asked a man before Jesus coming;Why you did this sin?So he will reply:It's not my sin,my creation have a fault!!
Yes God is most powerful…yet sin exists. The concept of sin exists in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I’m not sure what you are asking, because if you are questioning how sin exists in God’s creation then you would be questioning your own belief as well.
+++
because Islam tells you to organize and resist-not kill-this lust and you'll paid by entering paradise,and if you didn't resist it so you'll be punished,if you replied the call of lust (by your free will)you'll be punished(in case you didn't repent),and if you replied the call of charity and good(by your free will)so you'll take the good retribution.
Again, I don’t understand what you mean by “organise and resist”. Christianity doesn’t expect us to “kill” sin!!! Like I said sin exists in all walks of life. It is up to us to excerise our free will, strengthened by God’s love in our hearts to keep away…to refuse being dragged into a sinful life.
What you say in that paragraph is exactly the same thing we believe: it’s up to us to choose!
+++
Why?Because Islam is not related to any nationality,persons or people but it denotes submission and obedience to Allah.
Also, Christianity is not bound to one race or group of people. The salvation was meant for all creation…not bound by time or by race or place.
+++
So,we don't deny Judaism and Christianity,but we believe that they're in their origin are right,but because the task of guarding Holy books of both of them have been put on shoulders of their followers so they have been corrupted,but as for Qur'an Allah Himself guarded it from being corrupted : " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). "15:9And look at Bible,and will find a lot of conflictions between all Bibles.
Three problems I have here:
1) God also says in the Bible that His word will not be altered:
35اَلسَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ تَزُولاَنِ وَلكِنَّ كَلاَمِي لاَ يَزُولُ
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:35
2) If God promises He will guard His word from corruption…how do you explain Him allowing Jews/Christians to corrupt it?
If the Almighty says “I will guard My word”…why didn’t He?
3) Now I don’t know about you, but I for one read the Bible. There are different translations…but there are no conflict in the meaning between the translations.
Also, I don’t understand what you mean by “Bibles”?? do you mean Gospels? Or translations of the Bible?
And if you know what these conflicts are, could you give us an example? Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning or you have been misinformed. We could certainly explain this to you and at the end, you may decide you still don’t like the explanation…or that it did indeed clarify it to you.
+++
and I've been always asking myself;How Christianity by the belief in Trinity is respecting mind?!!This belief can't be reached by mind at all
Well actually it can! Many people throughout history believed in this faith whilst being very intelligent and well educated.
Perhaps you mean it cannot be accepted by YOUR mind? There is a difference here.
There are many things in Islam that I know MY intellect cannot accept. It doesn’t negate YOUR acceptance of them…it just means I don’t sccept them. But I can’t judge your intellect by my bias. Similarly you should not judge others faith and intellect by your own.
+++
all prophets and messengers talked about the One God who have no son or wife.
We do not believe God has a wife either!!
+++
God's nature is absolute and don't change by time,so if you thought about Trinity again you'll find that it existed after Jesus(in Christian belief)but before him there wasn't any Trinity.
God Has always existed…His nature doesn’t change…correct.
What has changed is our understanding of His nature.
The trinity has always existed Mohammed. The Gospel of St John the Apostle says:
1فِي الْبَدْءِ كَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ، وَالْكَلِمَةُ كَانَ عِنْدَ اللهِ، وَكَانَ الْكَلِمَةُ اللهَ. 2هذَا كَانَ فِي الْبَدْءِ عِنْدَ اللهِ. 3كُلُّ شَيْءٍ بِهِ كَانَ، وَبِغَيْرِهِ لَمْ يَكُنْ شَيْءٌ مِمَّا كَانَ. 4فِيهِ كَانَتِ الْحَيَاةُ، وَالْحَيَاةُ كَانَتْ نُورَ النَّاسِ، 5وَالنُّورُ يُضِيءُ فِي الظُّلْمَةِ، وَالظُّلْمَةُ لَمْ تُدْرِكْهُ
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
The word here refers to Jesus Christ as does the Quran too:
[171] O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs
Sura 4 verse 171
Now I know this verse opposes the trinity but note the reference to Jesus as the word of God which is the point I’m trying to make…how do you explain Jesus being “The word of God” yet different to God? God being eternal: ie. Not bound by time…His word is as eternal as He is.
Look, sorry I didn’t want to turn this into a debate. Our aim of this discussion is to clarify to you what we believe. I am well aware of the fact you do not believe in the trinity and have also read “tafseer” of the Quran regarding Jesus. So I’m not asking you to explain this verse to me. I’m merely using it to clarify a point.
In a way, I know what the verse means to you as a Muslim…I’m, just telling you what it means to me as a Christian.
+++
I'd like to direct your attention to an important point,when I say that Christian belief have faults I don't aim at irritating you but I just invite you to let your mind work,whether you find me right or wrong but just don't delete your mind.
Mohammed; I know you don’t mean offence, but I can’t help but feel offended at your assumption that we don’t understand what we believe.
For starters, how did you arrive at the conclusion that we don’t use our mind to understand our faith?
If its merely the result of your inability to comprehend Christian concepts then forgive me but this is arrogance. I said this before to Mohammed Meshref, it’s like me saying “Physicists don’t employ their intellect to understand physics” just because I don’t understand physics!
Also, what you know about Christianity may not necessarily be a correct representation of what we actually believe. Hence, this discussion we are having to clarify some concepts to you. Of course you may still see these concepts as unacceptable to you…that’s fine, I’m not here to convince you of anything.
Just be mindful of the fact that a bit of tolerance goes a long way. Don’t “delete” our right to believe and practice a faith that we see as every bit as acceptable and meaningful as you see your own faith.
God's Peace and Blessings Be With You
.
posted by Bent El Neel at ٤:٢٠ م
7 Comments:
Thanks Nefertteti for replying.
I think that you noticed that I'm so busy on my blog for the situation in Lebanon,so I don't think that I'll reply now at all.
Again I thank you for giving me from your time to reply,and may Allah bless all peace-loving hearts.
Mohamed
That's OK mate...take your time. God knows I did :)
Take care and I join you in your wish for the peace loving hearts
Law Student
Welcome! Its always nice to have a fellow Aussie over :)
Thank you for the input, and I have a couple of points on what you said:
* they indeed have been fingered with extensively.
You are certainly free to hold the belief that the Holy Bible is not the real word of God.
To many people however, it is a sacred book containing the word of God and His teachings.
I for one take offence to your use of the word "fingered" in your comment. I welcome your input whether I agree or disagree with you...but I will ask you to please refrain from offending what I hold sacred.
* It amazes me that a text, which plays such a central role in Christianity, is so full of contradictions and confusions in a manner which a lesson is communicated then later invalidated then again communicated then again invalidated.
This is a view many people hold, not only of the Bible but of other religious text as well.
I have studied my Bible and my faith and I am comfortable with the fact that it is indeed the word of God, unaltered, and consistent. You obviously see different...as a result of studying the Bible? or a personal bias? I don't know...
but it doesn't matter to me. With all due respect to your person...your opinion does not change my reality.
However, if you would like to discuss this further then I welcome the opportunity to hearing another point of view.
Take care :)
Dear Law Student
Thanks for responding.
Like I said, many people hold the belief that religious texts we know today are not the original texts...that they were altered. This applies to the Bible as it does to the Quran.
The Gospel according to Luke IS the Gospel according to God
The Gospel according to Mark IS the Gospel according to God
and so on.
It is the word of God written by the hands of Mark, Matthew, John, Luke, Paul, Peter...and Moses, David and Solomon etc before them.
Just like you believe the Quran was given by God to MOhammed...same concept!
As for the contradictions you cited, they are in fact not contradictions at all. It would probably take more than a comment on a post to explain them all, but I'm happy to write a separate post with the meanings of those verses if you are interested.
Also, on that point, as a Muslim you also have contradicting verses in the Quran (verses that abrogate other verses)...to my intellect, God wouldn't need to "abrogate" His own words: which is one of the reasons I cannot accept Islam or the Quran.
At the end, and like you say my faith will remain my faith and yours will remain yours :)
I don't know how much Arabic you know but we have a saying that goes:
الاختلاف فى ارأى لا يفسد للود قضيه
and I think it's quite apt in this case!
It's a pleasure to meet you and thanks again for the chat
Peace
I wouldn't be interested. Read them in context and a bell of confusion may ring.
Fair enough. And I have read them in context
If you will quote verses, then do so in context
Will not quote verses because i gather you are not interested in taking part in the discussion...which is fine...just don't wanna spend the time for no reason.
I have read the verses in context...might come as a surprise to you but i have read the Quran...not all but a great portion of it. I depend on "tafseer" of Ibn Katheer, Jalalein, Qortoby and Tabari to understand the meaning of Quranic verses. I depend on Sahih Al Bokhari and Sahih Mosslim to understand Hadith.
If your going to upload verses from an evangelical missionary site, then dont bother
See above for references I rely on to understand Islam
I will poke around your blog once in a while :)
Heheheheh!!! cool, poke away!! Hope to see ya around.
The arabic text is pronounced:
Al Ikhtilaf fil ra'y la yofsed lellwedd qadiyya
it means something like:
We may disagree but we can still be mates!!
lol! Translation is not my strongest point but I try :D
Hi Neferteeti,
Firstly,I should provide a great apologize for this lateness,but you know the reason.
I don't have replies but just some words about some points and hope to read them well.
I think that you didn't understood my questions as for sexual texts in new Bible,so here you're my questions again:
*Are you as being Christians can read sexy stories and see sexy pictures?(Is it Halal?)I mean here stories which have in the ending an advice not to do that?!!(I don't intend any irony but I want to know your belief in this point)
*Can you as being a woman read this part in front of men?
As for your point,"Inappropriate clothes"....
You must know our Egyptian public example which says:"Don't put petrol beside fire"..and this is my point here..Women should be ordered to wear good cloth and then when men look so it's their fault,but to leave women wear provocative cloth and after that the responsibility be on just men so it's not just at all,it's shared between both of them.
And here you're an example:
We'll assume that there is two men and two women(Assume Christians),both men know well that looking at women in bad cloths is wrong,but first man have strong desire to bless his God,as for second one;he have a desire to do that but it's not so strong like first one.As for the two women,one of them wears very provocative cloth,and the second covers all her body except her face and hands.
And one day the two men were walking in street together,and meet firstly the woman covering her body,sure the strong man didn't look,as for weak man he found that there is no thing to look at so he didn't look.After some steps they meet the woman in provocative cloth,the strong man who want to bless his God didn't look,as for the second man,he looked a bad look however he knows that it's wrong.
So my message here is that women should be prevented at the first to wear bad cloth,and after that order men not to look.And if you thought that it's against one's freedom,so you're completely wrong,because human isn't living alone in society but there is others which he should respect their feelings.
And another point I'd like to raise here,you said that the reason why God told these sexual stories is to show you how this woman made the man commit the sin and to warn men not to do that,So I'll mention a story from Qur'an which treats same issue,
It's the story of Joseph:
"23. But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him from his (true) self: she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come, thou (dear one)!" He said: "(Allah) forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!" 24. And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her, but that he saw the evidence of his Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds: for he was one of Our servants, sincere and purified. 25. So they both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back: they both found her lord near the door. She said: "What is the (fitting) punishment for one who formed an evil design against thy wife, but prison or a grievous chastisement?....." 12:(23:25)
So can you see my point?!!!!!!!!These verses described the story,and the meaning and he benefit will reach who read it,It's giving an example to who read it for a youth who have the opportunity to make the sin and all conditions were helping him to do it,but he refused to do it.However the story was about a provocative thing but who read it don't feel any irritation,just the meaning reaches you without being irritated.
And I have a request to you and hope to make this service for me,
Sure you have friends which are religion-losers,so give him\her(I prefer a man) the text of the story mentioned in Bible-which I mentioned before- and give him\her in the same paper this Qur'anic story,and then ask him which one of them tells him not to commit harlotry without being irritated.And please reply me,what was his\her reply.
I hope that you reply my questions concerning to sexual stories and if you can read these stories describing practicing sex in front of men.
I would like to direct your attention to a point,In Islam we believe in all prophets and messengers sent by Allah,and believe also that every protocol which every prophet or messenger came with was different because of differences between societies and needs of people..etc.But we believe that however these differences existed,but these differences were in just أحكام عملية (sorry,I don't know it's meaning,but it's like how to pray,fast,charity..etc),but they all invites for one thing,to worship One God,and to be honest,well ethiced.,.etc.
As for Christianity I understood from your words that there are basic things in belief which changed,and the example for this is the Trinity,it existed (in your belief) after Jesus,but before Jesus there wasn't any Trinity.
And you yourself said :"What has changed is our understanding of His nature" So we differs here that you believe that people before Prophet Jesus looked to God a different look than after him,but in Islam He is One God,whether before Prophet Mohammad or after him.
My point which you didn't understand is that I see that God has the power to do any thing and when He wills to do any thing there is no thing which can change it and also there is no Creator other than Him,but regarding to your belief;there is a corruption in God's creation,by another word,there is power beside God which corrupted the creation of God,there is a power which equals God's power.So here is my problem.
And here you're my thinking: 'If Satan have the enough power to corrupt God's creation,and will make God in the future have to fix this corruption made by Satan(through cross as you believe)so this God isn't the most powerful,and there is who equals Him(Satan),and sure all this must be wrong regarding to true God.'
Sorry,but I think that المسيحية is related to (المسيح (عليه السلام .But as for Islam it means the full submission to Allah.يسلم:تعني أن تذعن وتسلم أمرك لجميع أوامر الله .For that reason I said that Islam isn't related to any nationality or persons like Christianity,Judaism,Buddhism..etc.
As for your problems with corrupting Bible and Torah;
I said that the task of saving books before Qur'an have been put in hands of their followers,in another word Allah let this task to them,but they didn't save it.As for Qur'an,Allah Himself saved it from being corrupted,and if you looked at the verse I mentioned in Arabic you'll find that the word mentioned was "..الذكر.." and this is a name from names of Qur'an.
If you need one conflict in Bible so here you're an example,
You believe that Jesus is a God,Right?!!!!!!!
So do you think that God have God which He worship and call Him in His prays?!!!!!!!!!!
Sure and with no doubt,No..God have no God.But if you looked at Bible;you'll find Jesus crying :"My God,My God.." (Matt.27:46)He didn't say :"Myself,Myself..".
And why Jesus was praying,Do God pray for Himself?!!!!!!!!
And also you'll find that in Jesus words,he's equaling himself by his followers; "I ascend unto my Father and your Father,and to my God and your God".Also notice that he's saying "My God.."
Another point is that Jesus didn't know about day of judgement; "But of that day and hour knoweth no man,no ,not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father" Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36 But if he was truly the God he would know about it,because God's knowledge is without any limitations.
Also Jesus isn't the Most Powerful; "Verily,verily I say unto you, The son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.." (John 5:19) And if you contemplated,God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority,But Jesus admitted that he don't do any thing by himself but by God.
And also while thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No one hath seen God at any time"(John 5:37)
Jesus always invited to worship the Only God,but if you read Bible you won't find a text like "I'm your God who created you and the universe,so pray for me" or like :"I'm the One,the Most Powerful,All-Knowing....".
So this is an example of conflicting in Bible.
I wonder that you say that Trinity can be reached by mind.I don't think that at all.And here you're my thinking in the image of a story..
"He was born on an isolated island,hundred years before coming of Jesus,but on being a baby his fathers died and let him alone,but a gazelle found him crying so it cared about him and bringed him as its little baby,and he grow up,he can't talk but he have his mind,he started to look around him on trees,birds,animals,sky,sun,moon and himself,and still thinking how this universe came to life,and reached the truth that this universe have a creator which created him and must be thanked for His blessings by worshipping Him,He still thinking and reached that this God isn't One,but He is a Tri-God,He is a Father,Son and الروح القدس and that the Father created man but Satan corrupted God's creation and because of this corruption he can't contact well with God,and reached by his own thinking that God will send his word to fix this corruption...."
So do you think that the story is working properly?!!!!Do you think this man could really reach all these facts by his own thinking?!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that a logical way for this story is:"He still thinking and reached that this God is One,and that there is no thing like Him,and that He's the Most Powerful,and that when he wills a thing so no power can stop this will or change it,and to bless Him he must be kind with nature and not to hurt any animal and to be honest...."
And for that reason,I'm saying that Islam is your birth right.Its beliefs can be reached by your own thinking like Prophet Abraham,and also it's your birth right because its teachings can fit any man.So the problem isn't my mind,your mind and his mind,but I'm talking about basics,which two neutral men don't differ on.
I have a question for you,To convert Christianity what should a man do?!!!!!!!!
That's right,I'm here to understand your faith,however it's too hard till now for me to understand.And I don't want to delete your right to believe what you want,but I see that you're on a wrong path,and as being friends I must tell you about what I see a right path,I won't and can't force you but I'm talking with your mind.
Sorry for the long message,but I just hope that you were open-minded on reading it.
Peace,
Hi Mohamed
Thanks for your comments and Happy Ramadan (kol sana wenta tayyeb). I only read half way down because of time restrictions and will do my best to repsond.
Basically, there isn't much to respond to...it comes down to different outlooks. Like we agreed, neither one of us is here to "convince" the other that his/her beliefs are correct.
We agreed that I'll try to explain to you our beliefs...if at the end of the day you come out with an understanding of what Christians believe, and still do not think it is correct in your eyes...thats ok! So there isn't really much point in back and forth "rebuttals" of everything we talk about.
just quickly:
As for the two women,one of them wears very provocative cloth,and the second covers all her body except her face and hands.
why does it have to be hijab Vs provocative? is every woman not wearing hijab provocative? Is every woman wearing the hijab not provocative?
You don't need a veil on your head to be modest Mohammed. I don't wear a hijab...but I wear appropriate clothings that are not revealing or provocative...does that make me a bad woman?
And I have a request to you and hope to make this service for me,
Unfortunately I can't...i don't see the point!!! I have God's word that this is His book and His teaching...what would it matter what a person thinks of it?
Sorry,but I think that المسيحية is related to (المسيح (عليه السلام .But as for Islam it means the full submission to Allah
Christianity IS related to Jesus
But you forget that we believe
Jesus IS God
As for your problems with corrupting Bible and Torah;
Sorry Mohammed...I don't have problems with the Torah and Bible being corrupted...I believe with all my heart they are not.
said that the task of saving books before Qur'an have been put in hands of their followers,in another word Allah let this task to them,but they didn't save it.As for Qur'an,Allah Himself saved it from being corrupted,
Would like to explain to us how Allah preserved the Quran?
Is it not true that the prophet MOhammed couldn't write? So when he recieved the Quran from Allah, he just memorised it...and relayed it to people around him.
Some verses were written on pieces of leather and kept in Aisha's house. It wasn't until after Mohammed's death that they thought to collect all verses and put them together. As a result they ended up with many different versions of the Quran...then I believe it was Khalipha Othman who ordered they use only the one version and ordered the rest burnt.
How is that preservation by Allah?
Sorry, I don;t mean any offence...but since you're not really holding back on the corruption of the Bible theory, I thought I'd clarify my view of the preservation of the Quran.
I still respect your right to believe in it...it is your Holy Book...but I'd appreciate you and other Muslims showing the same respect for our Holy Book.
I'll leave it at this for now. Talk more soon.
God bless
salam on everybody.
it seems a nice debate you are both having. I am a muslim and have a christian frind with which we discuss much our religion.
i would like to correct some of what was just written about the prophet mohammed pbuh. yes he was unable to write or read and we even have a chapter called read iqra and it is the first chapter revealed by Allah. You may want to deny that fact but that is the truth and you can refer to history.
i would like to add that people before us centuries ago were different in many cases. that is ti say, they use to be taller and grow faster and memorize sharper. so apart from the fact which i do not deny that the quran was written in leather stuff,our prophet memorized every verse easily especially that he is a prophet and i belive jesus can do that and the other prophets too. Also people themselves learned it by heart for the fact that they know the torah and the bible was altered so they learned it by heart and till now people still read it by heart. in the quran it say that the quran is mahfood fi asssodour which means learned by heart so it may never change and it never had different versions but maybe different translations.
but when it comes to the bible it has of course different versions and translation and the original bible was not even written in hebrew.
it was even not complete and history shows that. i am talking about the rest of gospels by mary juda...i do not know what is your idea about the davinchi code and the new biblical gospel found. it even contradits with the bible so it will not be added to it.
the problem with the bible is that it really has changed to the extant that there are different christian fundamental view toward jesus pbuh as some say he is the son of God while others say he is God. But since you say that he is God i wonder how God killed himself to save people while he is still alive by that time when the murder happened. sorry but i see that this is ironic and you may correct me
you may say he is a loving god so he did that for a certain reason that you know but why if he is to forgive people not just forgive them and that is it instead of killing himself.
i hope you just think of it because i never get it as maybe i am not intelligent enough but i can not belive someone killed himself while he is still alive.
i wonder too why you say a sin is a sin in christianity while i can not imagine that if a woman stole a cup of cofee to feed her baby who ios to die of famine is as guilty as bin laden who killed people? too weird for me
other things like the original sin that if adam and eve committed a sin then i am to bear their sin. in other means we are born sinful as christianity says. so how is if i have a new born child and he died for certain reson he will go to hell as he is born sinful. i wonder how that can happen to an infant,?
all i know is i did not ask adam and eve to do a sin so i am not bound to bear their sin but what i do.
well, many things you can just think a little about it and judge apart from the fact of being christian to find out that there is something that needs questioning.
anyway sorry for the intervention and hope you find time to read my comment and as a similar prover says: difference in talks makes great folks
peace and chiken greace: hicham
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