The Truth According to Who?
After posting the first of the stories concerning the controversial topic of forced conversions in Egypt, I received a comment from Mohamad. I really wanted to address your comment properly Mohamad and that's why I thought I'd put my reply in a post.
First of all, let me tell you I respect your zeal for your faith. I also respect the fact that you try to seek the truth. If you read my post titled "Stolen" you would have seen that I stated "You may or may not believe what you read....that's up to you" and I still stand by that comment. However you raised a couple of things I felt I needed to discuss with you. I pray you receive my reply with an open mind as I do not intend to attack your views at all. I am merely addressing your comments.
"If you know Gamal As'ad(a CHRISTIAN egyptian thinker)he said that he lived near alot of these accidents and after the reality of disappearing revealed the truth was that the christian girl LOVED(is love is forced to be created) the muslim boy and marry him and then she read about Islam and convert to Islam by her own freedom."
Like in any community, there are those who are respected members, and those who aren't. Just because Gamal As'ad says something it doesn't make it true. Unfortunately the Coptic community has some members who like to publicly side with the government and say things that mostly harm their community. This is usually due to one of the following reasons:
1) they have problems with church leaders
2) they are trying to achieve personal gain
3) they are under pressure to say these things
My question to you Mohamad; why do you believe what he says as opposed to what 100's of 1000's of Copts are saying?
You pose a question about whether love can be forced to exist. No I don't believe you can force someone to love you. But when that someone is a 15 year old girl, and you lead her on instead of doing the right thing then that's a crime. In fact Egyptian law clearly states that a minor cannot legally marry or convert without her guardian's permission.
My question for you Mohamad: if your sister came to you and said "Mohamad; I love this Coptic guy and I am going to marry him no matter what...." What would you do?
"If you know Al-Osbo' newspaper it published an article with Marian and Kristin and narated their story date 2\1\2006.Ask any egyptian friend to send it to you!"
I heard about the article although I haven't read it. I think you live in Egypt so I would have thought you'd know by now what kind of paper Al Osboa is. It is a newspaper that was branded by many Egyptian journalists as a "yellow newspaper" (a term that indicates it is a cheap paper that can neither be trusted nor respected)It is the same newspaper that published the article which sparked the Alexandria Violence a couple of months ago. Same one that published a horrible article defaming Coptic convents and monasteries in Egypt. So would I really pay attention to it? With that history, afraid not. However, (and sorry I'm going to start with a question this time) do you really believe the girls would have said "actually, you know what...we didn't really want to be Muslims. Made a mistake and wanna go home now"???????????????
I don't think so. Why? first of all rejecting Islam is not allowed and you should know that. It's a one way street and you can't turn back. Many do I know, but they have to do it in secret. How could a couple of teenage girls say they want to go back in a newspaper??
Which brings me to my next point...they are TEENAGERS...MINORS. What kind of man or men allowed themselves to get involved with a couple of minors, to the extent that they lead them to abandon their families and their religion??? How would you feel if they were your daughters?? MINORS!!! their conversion is illegal and so is their marriage.
"And do you know the full story of Wafa'a Qustanteen?!!So who force who?!!"
AH! I was waiting for that one. Of course I know her story...as much as anyone really knows her story. Fact is Mohamad, nobody knows the reality of what happened there. She also released a statement saying she is embracing Christianity again...why don't you believe that? Why have you chosen to be selective about what you believe? You'll say she was coerced to say that, well I could tell you that those girls were coerced too. In fact I would go as far as saying they didn't even give that interview and it was all fabricated. It's not like we're talking about a respected newspaper here.
Have you personally spoken to Wafa Qostantin?? Do you know what is in her thoughts or heart? I don't. And frankly I don't really care to know. She's a grown woman in her 40s.
One final thing. I am not a mathematical genius, but I know a couple of things about statistics. I know enough to tell me that one case (Wafa Qostantine) doesn't really set a trend or indicate Christians are forcing people to convert. But 5000 reported cases in one year kinda have a bit more pull. Even if some are not really kidnappings or coercion, you have to wonder what could possibly make 5000 families in one year to claim their daughters were kidnapped or forcibly converted.
Mohamad; I said before that I respected your search for the truth. I pray that you find the courage to accept the truth even if it goes against what you think and believe.
God Bless you Mohamad, and Bless All His Children
First of all, let me tell you I respect your zeal for your faith. I also respect the fact that you try to seek the truth. If you read my post titled "Stolen" you would have seen that I stated "You may or may not believe what you read....that's up to you" and I still stand by that comment. However you raised a couple of things I felt I needed to discuss with you. I pray you receive my reply with an open mind as I do not intend to attack your views at all. I am merely addressing your comments.
"If you know Gamal As'ad(a CHRISTIAN egyptian thinker)he said that he lived near alot of these accidents and after the reality of disappearing revealed the truth was that the christian girl LOVED(is love is forced to be created) the muslim boy and marry him and then she read about Islam and convert to Islam by her own freedom."
Like in any community, there are those who are respected members, and those who aren't. Just because Gamal As'ad says something it doesn't make it true. Unfortunately the Coptic community has some members who like to publicly side with the government and say things that mostly harm their community. This is usually due to one of the following reasons:
1) they have problems with church leaders
2) they are trying to achieve personal gain
3) they are under pressure to say these things
My question to you Mohamad; why do you believe what he says as opposed to what 100's of 1000's of Copts are saying?
You pose a question about whether love can be forced to exist. No I don't believe you can force someone to love you. But when that someone is a 15 year old girl, and you lead her on instead of doing the right thing then that's a crime. In fact Egyptian law clearly states that a minor cannot legally marry or convert without her guardian's permission.
My question for you Mohamad: if your sister came to you and said "Mohamad; I love this Coptic guy and I am going to marry him no matter what...." What would you do?
"If you know Al-Osbo' newspaper it published an article with Marian and Kristin and narated their story date 2\1\2006.Ask any egyptian friend to send it to you!"
I heard about the article although I haven't read it. I think you live in Egypt so I would have thought you'd know by now what kind of paper Al Osboa is. It is a newspaper that was branded by many Egyptian journalists as a "yellow newspaper" (a term that indicates it is a cheap paper that can neither be trusted nor respected)It is the same newspaper that published the article which sparked the Alexandria Violence a couple of months ago. Same one that published a horrible article defaming Coptic convents and monasteries in Egypt. So would I really pay attention to it? With that history, afraid not. However, (and sorry I'm going to start with a question this time) do you really believe the girls would have said "actually, you know what...we didn't really want to be Muslims. Made a mistake and wanna go home now"???????????????
I don't think so. Why? first of all rejecting Islam is not allowed and you should know that. It's a one way street and you can't turn back. Many do I know, but they have to do it in secret. How could a couple of teenage girls say they want to go back in a newspaper??
Which brings me to my next point...they are TEENAGERS...MINORS. What kind of man or men allowed themselves to get involved with a couple of minors, to the extent that they lead them to abandon their families and their religion??? How would you feel if they were your daughters?? MINORS!!! their conversion is illegal and so is their marriage.
"And do you know the full story of Wafa'a Qustanteen?!!So who force who?!!"
AH! I was waiting for that one. Of course I know her story...as much as anyone really knows her story. Fact is Mohamad, nobody knows the reality of what happened there. She also released a statement saying she is embracing Christianity again...why don't you believe that? Why have you chosen to be selective about what you believe? You'll say she was coerced to say that, well I could tell you that those girls were coerced too. In fact I would go as far as saying they didn't even give that interview and it was all fabricated. It's not like we're talking about a respected newspaper here.
Have you personally spoken to Wafa Qostantin?? Do you know what is in her thoughts or heart? I don't. And frankly I don't really care to know. She's a grown woman in her 40s.
One final thing. I am not a mathematical genius, but I know a couple of things about statistics. I know enough to tell me that one case (Wafa Qostantine) doesn't really set a trend or indicate Christians are forcing people to convert. But 5000 reported cases in one year kinda have a bit more pull. Even if some are not really kidnappings or coercion, you have to wonder what could possibly make 5000 families in one year to claim their daughters were kidnapped or forcibly converted.
Mohamad; I said before that I respected your search for the truth. I pray that you find the courage to accept the truth even if it goes against what you think and believe.
God Bless you Mohamad, and Bless All His Children
posted by Bent El Neel at ٣:١٥ م
9 Comments:
Hi,
In fact I know that you do not intend to attack my views and you just talking about information reached you that don't have to be true.
I believe Gamal As'ad not because he defend my religion but as he is fair and neutral however he is christian and also an important point:ON DREAM2 CHANNEL AN INSULAR CHRISTIAN EGYPTIAN WAS ON TELEPHONE FROM AMERICA AND WAS ASKED BY MR.GAMAL TO TELL HIM ABOUT NAMES OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT KIDNAPPE GIRLS AND WHAT THE OTHER SIDE DID?!!HE DIDN'T REPLY AND ESCAPED FROM THE QUESTION(as I remember)..and do you call Christians who object you as you said in 1,2 and 3?!!!IS IT THE PAYMENT OF WHO SAY THE TRUTH?!!
and what worths 100 or even 1000 beside Heroines of the story?!!
Yesterday I watched a video on computer made by Marian and Christin they were saying that they hadn't been kidnapped or forced to convert Islam(you may say that no kidnapped one will say that he is kidnapped,Right?they said that they aren't forced to make this video and they weren't making this video to say that they're kidnapped or not,it was to say that they want to get back to their homes and they were asking Moubarak to help them)if you said it's fabriced I think that we won't have a positive here discussion but another thing.
So the minor who married without permission of her guardian is wrong and this fault must be corrected but converting to Islam is not a crime amd she is free ..but do you think that if she get back to her family house will they leave her or will punish her and beat her to force her to convert Christianity again?!!I think that if she was sure that this won't happen she will go back to her house?!!
what about question about my sister:in Islam a Muslim girl isn't allowed to marry a non-muslim boy as Allah ordered us.and I'll convince her calmly and remind her by this order from Allah,not beat her!!
I don't know the article you mentioned about Coptic convents and monasteries!
and what about leaving Islam after converting it(I think that I know more than you about my religion as you know more than me about your religion).Right you are not allowed to leave Islam after converting it but at the first you're free to be non-muslim and you'll take your rights as a human under REAL ISLAMIC STATE,then you're not allowed to convert Islam till you're 100% sure that it's the right way after all that when you leave Islam you are asked to show your reasons for doing that during three days and then you're killed,but please don't read the word "killed"
and forget previous words and what I'm going to say..In prophet's Mohamed life some miscreants converted Islam and left it aiming at affecting Muslims,so this was the punishement.
"..nobody knows the reality of what happened there","..why don't you believe that?","..it was all fabricated"
So what we're talking about?I think that you won't believe news till they say that Islam is forcing people to convert it,Right?
And what about the 5000 families;I don't know that this issue has this size.And why they said that they are kidnapped?Why they don't say that they converted to Islam freely;as they don't have a definite sources.
I enjoyed talking with you,and hope to see the day when every body know real merciful face of Islam.And I apologize if my form in speach was tough.
Good bye,
Thank you Mohamad. And please don't apologise, your words are not tough at all, you are entitled to your opinions. Everyone's opinions are coloured by their environment and their experiences. That's why I'd like you to know that I don't oppose these Copts just because their opinion is different to mine. They are well known in the Coptic community and not very liked for various reasons.
Just to clarify; You mentioned you'd try to convince your sister that Allah doesn't allow a girl to marry a non Muslim. Who told you that Christianity allows us to marry non Christians?? Neither a man nor woman can be married in a Coptic church to a non Orthodox, let alone a non Christian. Who said anything about beating anyone into Christianity?
Another calrification; conversion of a minor is also prohibited unless a legal guardian can give permission.
"then you're not allowed to convert Islam till you're 100% sure that it's the right way"
What does a 15 or 16 year old know for sure about anything??????
Trust me Mohamad when I say; we as Copts know so much more about Islam than you give us credit for. We study Islamic history, learn the Quran and know all the traditions at the hands of our Muslim teachers and neighbors and friends and what we watch on TV programs of Sheikhs and what we hear every day from mosque loudspeakers. What do you really know about Christianity that you actually learnt from a Christian?
I understand you are trying to present your religion's best face to the world, Mohamad. In the process, don't close your mind to knowledge of other's faith, nor your heart to the pain of any human.
أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.
Hi,
In fact when I re-read my last my message I discover that I was really tough as I was affected by topics in Amilia blog so I repeat my apologize and you should have tell me that I was tough not to try to reply..
Any way I see that the best thing to be done know is to end the discussion as it's going so badly,and I'm not Khalifat of Muslims and you aren't leader of Christians..
And I want to say a thing before ending it..
Islam has more than 1,000,000,000,000 follower so will christian girls add a thing to Islam if they were forced?It's a out of mind!
But as it will be the last message I want to do my duty that Allah ordered me to do:
Message of Prophet Mohamed is the last message..
I told you the truth and your duty now to searsh for it and please be fair and neutral during searching and look at what Christianity reached;they go alot away from the right way and said that there is three and Prophet Jesus is son of the god and you have more than one Bible written from minds of Humans..
and there is a paradise and hell;first is for who reach the truth..
if you want to know more about Islam and also Christianity
Here you're some websites:
www.islamonline.net
www.alhakekah.com
Now the ball is in you playground..
Mohamad, if your words were tough, i assure you they didn't hurt me. Like my Lord Jesus Christ taught me; I pray for you in any case.
You think we as Christians worship 3 Gods...that couldn't be further from the truth. If you really want to know what we believe look up the concept of the Holy Trinity (in arabic Al Thalouth Al Moqaddas). Pope Shenouda and many others have written extensively on this.
That comment you made about our "ishrak" or worshipping more than one God highlights the biggest problem we face. Muslims know NOTHING about our faith and its so easy for any lunatic in a turban to tell the massess, look they are Kaffara and Moshrekeen...and they'll believe him.
Finally Mohamad, even if we're not leaders in our communities we can...no SHOULD talk and understand each other's views. Change should happen from the bottom up....from the people up, not from the leaders down.
However, you are free to stop this discussion if you so wish. And I thank you for having participated and wish you all the best in all that you do. May God bless you.
No,who said that you worship three gods...I'm not saying that and don't think that by my little knowledge....
but what I know about Christianity that when Prophet Eisa was sent to Jewish he was a man like us not son of the god or an angel (as Qur'an told me) and there is no three Aqaneem...
and in fact I don't know about Christianity alot but when I read things it says like:three Aqaneem,son of the god and when I know that there is more than one Bible written by humans and sophisticated(Moharaf)(however Qur'an is one and no one can change a letter in it),and in source of bible you're ordered to believe in Prophet Mohamed.........I get puzzled and wonder why you don't think about it by the mind and away from nationalities,and know that that Jewish,Christianity and Islam are all messages from Allah and message of Islam is the last message....
and if you opened Al-Hakeke website it's talkng about Christianity and basic wrongs it has and discus it calmly by proofs,and as you said Change should happen from the bottom up....from the people up, not from the leaders down so.
And I want to tell an important thing:Sometimes you have a full faith towards a thing and then someone tell you an opposite thing to this faith with proofs(not just lies)and these proofs are real..and it lead to real truth and change your previous thought.....
so please enter this website........I don't want you to be shocked in your faith and thoughts but just want you to reach the truth.....
Thanks for not misunderstanding me...
and hope that you reach the truth.....
My dear friend Mohamad, your last comment made me smile, so thank you for that. I smiled because you think I am Christian by birth. Fact is Mohamad I am Christian by choice. True I was born to Coptic parents, but I can recall the moment i consciously accepted this faith.
All the things you say about the Christian faith, I have heard before. There are many more websites and books that aim to disprove Christianity. Some researchers made it their life's work to do so. I haven't obviously read all those books/articles but i have read some and spoken to some people who gave me "evidence" of their argument.
So what?
You see Mohamad, I believe that no matter people say, my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ said: "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."(Mathew16:18)
I doubt you ever learnt anything about the Christian faith FROM A CHRISTIAN. I have done my bit Mohamad, I have learnt Islam at the hands of Muslim people, from Al Azhar approved books, I read your Quran and read the credible Ahadith. I learnt your religion the way you believe it. I found nothing spiritually enriching in it. Yet I found peace and love and forgiveness in Christianity.
You on the other hand seem to have found your peace in Islam...that's fine too. But if you want to speak to me about my faith, take your own advice that you gave Amillennialist and learn it first...not at the hands of someone who wants to disprove it, but learn it the way we believe in it. Only then you may form a true opinion on it
By the way there is no mention in the Bible at all of Mohammad (the prophet). We attained salvation by the blood of Christ and so we didn't need to wait for another. We only await Christ's second coming.
May God give peace to your heart before your mind Mohamad, and may He light your way.
Mohamad wrote
I didn't know before that I was so funny to make you laugh..
Any way,you find peace in Christianity but it don't mean that Islam don't mean peace and love and forgiveness ..and I found my faith in Islam and 100%sure about it...
And there is alot of differences betewwn Christianity and Islam as:we know that your religion is a religion from Allah but yuo don't,we have one Qur'an but you have more than one,our Qur'an wasn't changed and your bible has been changed alot and this last difference is why you didn't find Prophet Mohamed in it but if you find(if you)source Bible you'll find him and that it's ordering you to believe in him when he come..
May Allah lead you to the truth..
Wow there friend!! i hope you didn't think i was laughing at you.. i said smile not laugh!! I smiled because I felt you didn't understand my faith very well, yet you have formed an opinion about. If you're fair, you'll see thats exactly what you keep saying to Amillennialist...so lets not get too sensitive here.
I talk to you very calmly and without a shred of anger or sarcasm. So don't take my words as insults. I gave you the benefit of the doubt even when you yourself said your words were harsh.
You're right i have found my salvation and peace in Christ, and no matter what you or those websites or books or scholars say, Jesus Christ is my God and Christianity is faith. Same as you believe in Islam. I respect your right to believe and I always told you i respected your zeal for your faith...yet you won't afford me the same respect.
I think maybe you were right a couple of emails ago when you said this discussion is not going anywhere. Look, I'm not here to convert Muslims or convince anyone of anything....My main focus is on the suffering of my fellow Copts in the name of Islam. I know you are trying too improve Islam's image to the world, but wouldn't all moderate Muslims' time be better spent educating those who preach "the wrong Islam"???
Because you're preaching about peaceful Islam to the wrong people Mohamad.
إرسال تعليق
<< Home