Just Because You Don't See It...
My oh my!!! I am off for one day to enjoy Mothers Day and come back to find this lively and hot discussion, in real danger of departing the realm of reason and logic. I don’t mean this as an insult to any of the participants, those who I agree with or those Idisagree with. It’s just that I now have the benefit of looking at everyone’s responses and examining the discussion as it developed.
For starters, please understand that I apply the same Egyptian hospitality in this blog as I do in my home and heart…all friends are welcome and encouraged to participate in all discussions. If for nothing else, for the selfish reason that I hope to learn from you all as you share your opinions with me. So please don’t get upset muslim, if Jack or Xavier or Red address you…they don’t do it out of malice I am sure…but it is an open forum.
Where to start?
Muslim, it is regrettable that you are disappointed by my comments. However, it seems it is you who misunderstood (whether intentionally or genuinely) what I was trying to say about religious freedoms.
The minor issue: I don’t believe I said a minor shouldn’t have the right to choose their faith. Let me clarify:
The law in Egypt states that a minor cannot change their name, religion or get married without their parents consent.
Many underage Christian girls were allowed to do precisely that without the authorities so much as contacting the parents to obtain their consent, or even to notify them of their child’s intentions.
"Of course, they wont agree :D What a fucken stupid law. "
Stupid or not…it is a law, and it must be upheld, just like all other laws must be upheld until such time that it is changed. If people don’t like it, they should lobby to change it.
They are called law enforcement agencies for a reason my friend…they are meant to uphold the law and protect the citizens.
The above means that the law enforcement agencies failed to do their job. Their job isn’t to pick and choose which laws are good and need to be upheld…or to which are stupid and need to be ignored.
This is why the issue of Marianne and Christine is indeed important and needed to be properly addressed…there was a clear failure by the authorities to do their job. The evidence for this is that the day Mubarak said “find the girls” they miraculously appeared!!
Having said that, I don’t think it is stupid at all for parents to have an input in their children’s decisions regarding something like religion. Parents are guardians of their child, responsible for ensuring their wellbeing and teaching them good values and morals, etc. I’m not implying parents should prevent their child from choosing their faith, not at all. But guidance is required for children or teenagers, who are by nature mostly impressionable and impulsive (and don’t say they aren’t…believe me when I tell you we all feel invincible and absolutely right when we are young. When you get to my age, and have the benefit of hindsight you’ll see what I mean)
"Any Christian who converts to Islam must have been kidnapped and forced," said you!!
WOW!!! Now I may be getting forgetful and slightly crazy…but I don’t recall ever saying that. Please give me a reference where I actually said that!
I did point out cases where this has happened in previous posts…I did say that it does happen but never that all those who convert to Islam are kidnapped. I know the discussion is getting heated and the comments long, but I’d appreciate it if you didn’t misconstrue what I’m saying.
"Wafa' Qustantenn was forced to return back to Christianity. But you don't want to say it. You simply deny. Why don't you write a new post about her rights to believe in Islam? "
Again, I don’t believe I denied anything. I pointed out that her situation was sensitive. Further I will say to you that I honestly don’t know what to think of her situation. How can I defend something I don’t know anything about?
"Yeah .. Let me tell you some useful info:
"It is illegal to be a Bahaai." :)
"It is illegal for a Christian to build a church without the president's consent." :) "
Thanx, but I knew that already. Here’s the difference:
Baha’is are either adults who have the right to change their faith…or minors who are the responsibilities of their guardians. Why should it be illegal to adopt any religion at all??
Furthermore, Bahaa’i families actually offer their children the opportunity to adopt whatever faith they choose when they reach the age of consent. How’s that for a useful fact?
Churches? Yeah, stupid law, but that’s why we’re trying to change it.
"Once they release the kidnapped person, what prevents him from returning back to his religion? "
Perhaps you give me less credit than I deserve for my knowledge of Islamic doctrine. Here’s what prevents them my dear friend:
7aq el redda!!!!
They would be killed if they abandoned Islam. Again, remember Abdul Rahman. Islam is a one way street…you keep walking, or you loose your head (literally)!
Hijab Issue: Now, Muslim women wearing the hijab in France can’t be compared with Coptic women wearing cross in Egypt.
You can’t compare apples with oranges. The law in France says: No religious symbols in government schools. So the same law applies to Jewish, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist adherents as well. Here’s the law reference if you want to look it up: law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004 Loi n° 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics.
As for those Copts hanging their crosses wherever they want, my earliest memory of walking the street with my mother is that of a bearded man in a white thobe spitting at her and cursing her cross.
As for church bells, need I remind you of the churches that were attacked and burned for no reason other than that Muslims in the village were offended by the ringing of the bells?
"kids? Moslem contries? international treaties?
Do you know what we are talking about, xavier? "
Yes I suspect he does…I for one understand what he means. You haven’t answered his question though.
Also, please don’t label the Western world as Christian. The Western world is a secular world…it is a gross misrepresentation on your part to call it Christian.
Finally, I will not dismiss you at all muslim. Nor do I think anyone else is trying to dismiss you. I have tried time and time again to see the discussion your way, and did my best to address everything you asked. Please accept my comment as a bit of advice or constructive criticism.
It seems that time and time again, you my dear friend have aimed only to antagonise. You have asked questions then dismissed our response. You have misconstrued and misrepresented things I stated. You have failed to answer questions we posed. Which at the end leads me to ask, as I am sure others are, what is it you are hoping to get out of this discussion?
If it’s to prove yourself right, then I suspect that’s something you need to prove to yourself. Often those trying to prove they are right and others are wrong, do so because they need to justify their own opinions to themselves.
If it’s to help guide us and show us the error of our ways, then thanks for the efforts, but no thanks. Every participant here has shown more than enough evidence that they understand exactly what they believe and why they believe it.
If it’s another reason altogether, please do share it because I for one am interested to know. Know this muslim, God knows I don’t harbour any resentment or hatred let alone annoyance toward you. I think I’m just confused by your need to attack or negate everything we say to you.
Now regarding proving Christianity:
Yes I do believe true faith starts in your soul. But I also never denied that proof is out of the question. You don’t like that we’re trying prove Christ’s divinity from the Bible…well, where else do you want the proof to come from? Can you prove anything about Islam from anywhere but he Koran and Ahadith? Can anyone for that matter prove their faith from anywhere but their own sacred text?
However, I’ll take you up on that challenge and show you that even Islam looks at Jesus as an extraordinary person altogether…Refer to this link:
In English
In Arabic
And tell me how anyone could possibly believe that in the very least…even if you don’t admit His divinity, God would need to send anyone after this extraordinary prophet. How could you claim that Mohammad who was not celibate, who waged wars, plundered caravans, encouraged enslaving women and children and even had a lot for himself, accepted verses from the devil unknowing (in contrast with Jesus who rejected the trial by Satan)…how could he be the seal of prophets after a man like Jesus??
I reiterate, we aren’t here to try to convert you…you posed questions, and we attempted to answer. Your refusal to acknowledge our answers is odd. I’m not saying agree with us…but at least agree that we are answering you. Remember muslim, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence…just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it ain’t there.
I pray that the Lord bless you and give you peace.
For starters, please understand that I apply the same Egyptian hospitality in this blog as I do in my home and heart…all friends are welcome and encouraged to participate in all discussions. If for nothing else, for the selfish reason that I hope to learn from you all as you share your opinions with me. So please don’t get upset muslim, if Jack or Xavier or Red address you…they don’t do it out of malice I am sure…but it is an open forum.
Where to start?
Muslim, it is regrettable that you are disappointed by my comments. However, it seems it is you who misunderstood (whether intentionally or genuinely) what I was trying to say about religious freedoms.
The minor issue: I don’t believe I said a minor shouldn’t have the right to choose their faith. Let me clarify:
The law in Egypt states that a minor cannot change their name, religion or get married without their parents consent.
Many underage Christian girls were allowed to do precisely that without the authorities so much as contacting the parents to obtain their consent, or even to notify them of their child’s intentions.
"Of course, they wont agree :D What a fucken stupid law. "
Stupid or not…it is a law, and it must be upheld, just like all other laws must be upheld until such time that it is changed. If people don’t like it, they should lobby to change it.
They are called law enforcement agencies for a reason my friend…they are meant to uphold the law and protect the citizens.
The above means that the law enforcement agencies failed to do their job. Their job isn’t to pick and choose which laws are good and need to be upheld…or to which are stupid and need to be ignored.
This is why the issue of Marianne and Christine is indeed important and needed to be properly addressed…there was a clear failure by the authorities to do their job. The evidence for this is that the day Mubarak said “find the girls” they miraculously appeared!!
Having said that, I don’t think it is stupid at all for parents to have an input in their children’s decisions regarding something like religion. Parents are guardians of their child, responsible for ensuring their wellbeing and teaching them good values and morals, etc. I’m not implying parents should prevent their child from choosing their faith, not at all. But guidance is required for children or teenagers, who are by nature mostly impressionable and impulsive (and don’t say they aren’t…believe me when I tell you we all feel invincible and absolutely right when we are young. When you get to my age, and have the benefit of hindsight you’ll see what I mean)
"Any Christian who converts to Islam must have been kidnapped and forced," said you!!
WOW!!! Now I may be getting forgetful and slightly crazy…but I don’t recall ever saying that. Please give me a reference where I actually said that!
I did point out cases where this has happened in previous posts…I did say that it does happen but never that all those who convert to Islam are kidnapped. I know the discussion is getting heated and the comments long, but I’d appreciate it if you didn’t misconstrue what I’m saying.
"Wafa' Qustantenn was forced to return back to Christianity. But you don't want to say it. You simply deny. Why don't you write a new post about her rights to believe in Islam? "
Again, I don’t believe I denied anything. I pointed out that her situation was sensitive. Further I will say to you that I honestly don’t know what to think of her situation. How can I defend something I don’t know anything about?
"Yeah .. Let me tell you some useful info:
"It is illegal to be a Bahaai." :)
"It is illegal for a Christian to build a church without the president's consent." :) "
Thanx, but I knew that already. Here’s the difference:
Baha’is are either adults who have the right to change their faith…or minors who are the responsibilities of their guardians. Why should it be illegal to adopt any religion at all??
Furthermore, Bahaa’i families actually offer their children the opportunity to adopt whatever faith they choose when they reach the age of consent. How’s that for a useful fact?
Churches? Yeah, stupid law, but that’s why we’re trying to change it.
"Once they release the kidnapped person, what prevents him from returning back to his religion? "
Perhaps you give me less credit than I deserve for my knowledge of Islamic doctrine. Here’s what prevents them my dear friend:
7aq el redda!!!!
They would be killed if they abandoned Islam. Again, remember Abdul Rahman. Islam is a one way street…you keep walking, or you loose your head (literally)!
Hijab Issue: Now, Muslim women wearing the hijab in France can’t be compared with Coptic women wearing cross in Egypt.
You can’t compare apples with oranges. The law in France says: No religious symbols in government schools. So the same law applies to Jewish, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist adherents as well. Here’s the law reference if you want to look it up: law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004 Loi n° 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics.
As for those Copts hanging their crosses wherever they want, my earliest memory of walking the street with my mother is that of a bearded man in a white thobe spitting at her and cursing her cross.
As for church bells, need I remind you of the churches that were attacked and burned for no reason other than that Muslims in the village were offended by the ringing of the bells?
"kids? Moslem contries? international treaties?
Do you know what we are talking about, xavier? "
Yes I suspect he does…I for one understand what he means. You haven’t answered his question though.
Also, please don’t label the Western world as Christian. The Western world is a secular world…it is a gross misrepresentation on your part to call it Christian.
Finally, I will not dismiss you at all muslim. Nor do I think anyone else is trying to dismiss you. I have tried time and time again to see the discussion your way, and did my best to address everything you asked. Please accept my comment as a bit of advice or constructive criticism.
It seems that time and time again, you my dear friend have aimed only to antagonise. You have asked questions then dismissed our response. You have misconstrued and misrepresented things I stated. You have failed to answer questions we posed. Which at the end leads me to ask, as I am sure others are, what is it you are hoping to get out of this discussion?
If it’s to prove yourself right, then I suspect that’s something you need to prove to yourself. Often those trying to prove they are right and others are wrong, do so because they need to justify their own opinions to themselves.
If it’s to help guide us and show us the error of our ways, then thanks for the efforts, but no thanks. Every participant here has shown more than enough evidence that they understand exactly what they believe and why they believe it.
If it’s another reason altogether, please do share it because I for one am interested to know. Know this muslim, God knows I don’t harbour any resentment or hatred let alone annoyance toward you. I think I’m just confused by your need to attack or negate everything we say to you.
Now regarding proving Christianity:
Yes I do believe true faith starts in your soul. But I also never denied that proof is out of the question. You don’t like that we’re trying prove Christ’s divinity from the Bible…well, where else do you want the proof to come from? Can you prove anything about Islam from anywhere but he Koran and Ahadith? Can anyone for that matter prove their faith from anywhere but their own sacred text?
However, I’ll take you up on that challenge and show you that even Islam looks at Jesus as an extraordinary person altogether…Refer to this link:
In English
In Arabic
And tell me how anyone could possibly believe that in the very least…even if you don’t admit His divinity, God would need to send anyone after this extraordinary prophet. How could you claim that Mohammad who was not celibate, who waged wars, plundered caravans, encouraged enslaving women and children and even had a lot for himself, accepted verses from the devil unknowing (in contrast with Jesus who rejected the trial by Satan)…how could he be the seal of prophets after a man like Jesus??
I reiterate, we aren’t here to try to convert you…you posed questions, and we attempted to answer. Your refusal to acknowledge our answers is odd. I’m not saying agree with us…but at least agree that we are answering you. Remember muslim, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence…just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it ain’t there.
I pray that the Lord bless you and give you peace.
posted by Bent El Neel at ١١:٤٤ ص
14 Comments:
Bent:
Good defense. To quote Tertullin: faith in things unseen. Glad you enjoyed Mom's dad.
Just a slight clarification: you can disobey immoral laws or those that are contrary to right reason. Also under exceptional circumstances a law can be relaxed- cf Les Miserables where the whole story hinges on stealing food to feed a starving family. Or burning a red light to a severely injured person to the hospital.
An example of disobeying an immoral law would be those that oblige you to murder, torture, rape and commit other crimes.
In the case of prohibition of minors converting-the problem in Egypt is the double standards. Moslem minors can't convert but Copt- especially the girls are fair game to be preyed upon with the state' active collusion.
xavier
Neferteeti:
Before reading your post, I had decided to stop commenting here, since I am going to pass an exam a few days later InShaa'Allah.
But, since you have made a whole post, just to reply to my comments, then it would be too rude not to leave one last comment :)
First of all, I didn't misconstrue your words intentionally .. so please don't repeat such horrible accusation again. It is something that I would never do.
What I tried to say in my post is that you made the same mistake that I had done while I was commenting the Bahaii's post. That is, taking a defensive position instead of focusing on the real problem.
If you move back to your last comment, before this post, you will find that you, instead of talking about the general problem (which is the rights of those who were forced to return back to Christianity, or those I think were forced) you started to tell me that the two girls were kidnapped and forced to be Muslims, or that they are minors, and you gave me an excuse for the coptic rage during the crisis of Wafaa' ... etc.
What was you trying to do?!
That was totally different from the issue I was trying to address.
I am not asking you why the copts were angry when Wafaa' converted to Islam. And I am not interested in one (or two) cases of conversion. This is not my subject. What I am trying to say is (why don't you defend the rights of Muslims in general as you do with the rights of the Bahaai's?)
Doing so would show me (and everyone else) that you are truly interested in the freedom of belief, and not that you are only interested in trying to prove that Islam prohibits the freedom of belief. Can you understand me?
I was trying to convince you to show all those who read your posts on this blog, including me, that you are defending the freedom of Muslims the same as Christians and Bahaai's. Simply, by making a post about our problems.
If this is not acceptable for you, then, please, stop defending other religions (e.g. Bahaai) and keep talking about the coptic cause only!!
Your reply was that "the Christian girls were forced". Of course you didn't say that "All Christians who convert to Islam are forced." However, please, think of the following words a minute:
The Afghans also didn't say that "All the Muslims who convert to Christianity are crazy."
Please revise your comment:
My first comment in the previous post where i mentioned the word insane...was a result of the Afghan convert Abdul Rahamn, who in addition to facing death for his conversion, was labelled insane (because obviously anyone who leaves islam is crazy?)
Who said that "every one who leaves Islam is crazy"? Now, is it true that you have misconstrued the words of the Afghans?!!
No, because the conclusion is understandable from the way of thinking (yours and the Afghani's). I don't say that this is your way of thinking, but your words, simply, give such impression.
And now, you are repeating the same mistake. Denying the problem instead of facing it. You are giving excuses for the laws in France. Please, I don't want to make a new debate about that issue, but, in short, (1) the law was issued specifically to prohibit Hijab and (2) the actual application of the law prevented the Christians from hanging a big cross. Of course, the word "big" was vague enough that nothing has changed since then regarding the French Christians!! Besides, (3) Hijab is not just a religious sign, since a Muslim women must wear it, by the order of God.
Again, THIS IS NOT THE POINT, the point is that there is a kind of persectution (or let it be a problem) felt by Muslims. If you are interested in the FREEDOM OF BELIEF in general, then why don't address it??
But again and again, you are defending?!! Why?? Do you really believe that Islam, as a religion and a belief, doesn't face any problems?
Once more, you didn't say that Islam doesn't face any problems :) but the way in which you deal with the examples that I metioned, implies that. All you did is denying the existence of the problem itself.
Now you gave me two stories concerning hanging the cross and ringing the bells of the church in Egypt. I don't know what are you trying to say.
Crimes? Bad deeds? yes, they are. But this is not a systematic persecution. There are tons of Christian web sites and TV channels that have nothing to do but to insult Muhammad PBUH. So, what does that mean?!!
A persectution is something systematic, inherently related to the regime itself. Are you trying to compare a law preventing Muslim women from wearing Hijab, with a man cursing the cross? Of course, the man's action is unacceptable, but what can the regime do with him?
I have many coptic friends who hang a cross all the time. You are not mentioning a persecution made by the regime, you are mentioning an action made by a man. And the same words apply concerning the Church bells and the Azan.
I am not accusing Christianity as a religion. I am trying to convince you to think of Islam as you think of any other religion. Good and bad sides are always there. That's all.
Let me repeat my words:
If it is not acceptable for you to address the problems of non-Christians on your blog, then please either:
- Write about the copts only, and stop defending other religions.
OR
- Tell me that your only purpose is to show that the Islam is bad.
I don't accuse you of the second, of course; don't get offended:)
But, please, can't you see that when it is related to Muslims, you always discover that no persectution is there and that they are fabricating or may be there is some other justification for the issue....etc. But when it is related to the others, you always discover that the accusations are true and that Muslims are truly involved in it?
Can't you see that my rule is always true (Religion = Bias)?
I have a lot to say about 7ad El Redda which the prophet himself didn't apply in several conversion cases(including a conversion to Christianity) and which was targetted mainly to El-Mareqeen (Al-7'awarig الخارجين عن النظام). Besides, 7ad-El-Redda is not applicable in our case, for we are talking about Egypt, not Saudi Arabia.
And alot to say about the rights of the youth (above 18) to change their religion; and also about the warrior prophet, Muhammad PBUH.
But, unfortunately, I don't have enough time to discuss all these issues:) May be after my exam I can do.
(Neferteeti: O my God, this muslim will return back :D what a headache? :)
But, there are a few interesting points that I want to touch before I leave:
* I am not ignoring your questions or replies. Please, notice that I am replying to several persons at the same time. Of course, I don't have a parallel processor installed in my brain :)
* I don't want to convert you, nor I think you want to convert me. It is just another inter-religious discussion :) Hope I haven't annoyed you.
You asked me two important questions, Neferteeti:
Firstly, What are you expecting to do with your discussions, muslim?
My answer: Return back to my first comment in this blog, and you shall know my aim. Simply, Muslims are not devils, Nazis or blood suckers. If you are going to criticise them, then, please, be brave enough to criticise yourself first. And also, if you are going to defend freedom, then try to be unbiased.
That is all what I am tying to do here, on this blog.
Secondly, you asked me about my silence concerning your (and Jack's) proof of Christianity. I didn't want to reopen the topic again, but .. ok, concerning your quesion,
"You don’t like that we’re trying prove Christ’s divinity from the Bible…well, where else do you want the proof to come from? Can you prove anything about Islam from anywhere but he Koran and Ahadith? "
No, but I have told you before that I have found some evidences that make me believe that the Quran and some of the Ahadith are truthful. Mainly the prophecies and the scientific facts.
How could Muhammad PBUH know that the universe is expanding? How could he know that Muslims and Jews will fight (at the end of days) for of a mosquee?
The examples are numerous. They are ready to be verified by any interested researcher. And they can be tested to prove the truthfulness of the Quran. On the other hand, however, what makes me believe that the Bible is true?
And I didn't say that you, Christians, don't understand your religion. Of course, I didn't mean that. Just your reasoning doesn't match mine.
Concerning the character of Jesus, I agree with you that he had had many wonderful characteristics, but, he wasn't totally infallible (remember, he used to drink wine). And his miracles doesn't imply that he is the God himself. According to your Bible, all the miracles of Jesus were previously done by others, including (giving life to the dead حزقيال) and (being rosen to the sky إيليا) ..
Besides, Jesus used to have dialogues with the Father (the God) that were obviously stated in the language of a slave talking to his Lord.
Anyway, as I said before, we are totally different in the way we perceive God.
"Your refusal to acknowledge our answers is odd. I’m not saying agree with us…but at least agree that we are answering you."
Ok, you are answering me :)
Neferteeti: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
This is an awesome rule of thumb that I do certainly appreciate.
I think Muslim is "his mother", and I dont mean cross dressing either !!
She's supposed to teach Christian religion at Al Azhar !!! surprise !
and I suspect she/he may have wished to widen her/his spectrum
Bent--My compliments to you on an excellently worded and phenomenally civil response. I started to read Muslim's comment here, but ay, ay, ay! After he'd gone around Miller's barn for the third or fourth time I just had to give it up. I have to agree with Red and Jack; there is no point in going around and around with someone who's obviously just looking to antagonize. I just hope he's putting in as much time boning up for that exam as he is trying to prod you. Allah favors the prepared!
I started a comment yesterday but got thrown off by my server, so I'll make my observation here. M. is looking to stoke, and he doesn't seem to be particular how. To that end he picks at every little point on which he thinks he can score, be it relevant or not. Thank goodness he's not studying journalism or writing!
Oh, he really pulled the wool over my eyes--the way he was behaving, I never would have guessed he was all of 20! Well, under 21 or under 18 makes me little diff--I'm still old enough to be his Mama--and I wonder how his Mama would put up with his tone if he dared direct it at her?
Furthermore, if I ever had evidence that my own nearly-20-year old male offspring were making a habit of taunting people on the futility of measures taken to protect their daughters from abduction, rape, and worse by his cronies, I'd turn HIS other cheek, as big as he is!
Listen up, Muslim, should you drop back in. Get off the "equal rights for Muslims" bandwagon. In secular nations where Islam does not rule Muslims have the same rights as anyone else--and that includes France where the prohibition on religious clothing and ornamentation applies to EVERYONE. If there are any countries in the world where the Muslim minority is anywhere nearly as oppressed as is your average non-Muslim minority is in your average Islamic-ruled country, I'd love to hear about it.
If you are genuinely interested in what causes otherwise rational people to embrace Christianity, I suggest you read up some apologetics sometime. If you can't get any in Egyptian libraries of bookstores, try the 'Net. The soul may pull us in the direction of faith, but mature faith comes only with the engagement of the mind. The list of Christian apologists and theologians who have put their intellects at the service of their souls and ours would fill pages. A few notables to start with:
Augustine, Aquinas, Pascal, Newman, Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, Muggeridge, Edith Stein.
You may or may not be aware that several of the above came to the Christian faith from a rationalist, atheistic or agnostic background and were no strangers to the art of fact-finding.
I had a couple of thoughts on some of M.'s Biblical points, but that's for another post and after I have time to get all my thoughts together. I've spilled enough ink, or bandwidth, or whatever for one day! Oh, and Red: I hope you're wrong about it being M.'s Mama--I would expect a professor to have a more scholarly, succinct style. Still, I'd have to say to her credit that she has him very well trained!
Please excuse the typos--I'm trying hard to be serene but smarty kids can be so irritating!
Bent is so calm and collected in the face of all this that I'm contemplating a nominatation for beatification!:-)
Muslim:
I'll answer the question:
Moslems don't need to be defended because they have many people doing that. By contrast few people care abut the Bah'i and worse treat them as non-human.
Also what persecution of Moslems? Do non-Moslems kidnap Moslem girl and women and forceibly convert. Do non-Moslem religious leader call on their faithful to massacre Moslems?
Have non-Moslems strapped on bombs and targeted Moslems?
When you claim that Moslems are pesecuted you need to provie us with some information or link to back up the claim or else it's just whining
Same goes for those Chirsian TV stations that supposedly prench anti-Islam hatred- who are they? Where are they located
As to France, you need to be aware of the very strong antireligious sentiment that appreaed during the French revolution and since the 1830s culminating in the 1905 law. I don't defend this law nor the secularism but it's a reality that needs to be understood.
Please take some time to read and reflect. Then if you have any additional questions, we'll be happy to discuss them
xavier
Muslim
Thank you for taking the time to respond even though you have exams to prepare for.
First of all, I wish you the best of luck in your exams and hope you do well. I also apologise if this discussion has taken you away from your studies, and welcome you with an open heart when you have finished studying to resume discussing any issue on this blog.
Seeing you are off to prepare for your exams, it’s probably pointless to respond to your comment at the moment. I think the others have given sufficient responses...I do have some points to add...but don't want to further take you away from your work. We’ll pick up again when you have finished, should you wish to come back
There is one thing I will thank you to remember when you return: I do not take kindly to anyone…anyone…telling me what I should say and how I should say it. I do not mean to think highly of myself, but I do believe I am a mature, reasonably intelligent, and independent woman. Your suggestion for me to either just talk about the rights of Copts only, otherwise I must include the rights of Muslims, is simply meaningless to me…no offence intended. You may tell me that you disagree with me, or that you think what I’m saying is a huge pile of compost…but do not ever tell me what I should or shouldn’t say.
I strongly believe that only our conscience with God’s guidance can dictate to us what we believe and what we can say, what we know is right and what is wrong. Only I can determine what to believe in and what to stand up for, and the manner in which I express myself. Needless to say, you and all other guests here have that exact same right as far as I am concerned.
God bless you Muslim, and guide you especially as you study for the upcoming exams.
CMinor
You, my dear, just brightened up my day with your lovely sense of humour and style , not to mention your colourful parenting technique. I bet you’re one of those women who are both comforting and stimulating all at once to be around…shame about the thousands of miles between us, it would have been wonderful to have a coffee every now and then.
What you said about Muslims rights in Western societies is spot on and I can’t add anything to that. In fact, I pretty much agree with everything you said regarding the Christian faith, and those intellectualls who chose to embrace it.
There is one thing I do disagree with you on…you give me way too much credit my dear CMinor. In fact I am a hot headed, quick tempered girl by nature. It is only through my faith that I try very hard to discipline myself and keep my temper in check. Although I suspect I fail miserably at times…I was very upset with my tone when I answered Muslim the first time in the post before last. But that’s why I love Christ, He will accept me and help me become a better person for the glory of His name alone. It wouldn’t do for me to be speaking about the Grace and Love of my Lord if I let loose with the anger!
Pete
Welcome back my dear Peter, always good to see you (or read you). You too put a smile on my face…I’m sorry to be smiling at you getting angry, I mean it in the nicest possible way :). I know what you mean, it is the one case of Wafa Costantine and possibly the two girls Marianne and Christine that keep getting thrown back in our face whenever this issue is brought up. It’s as if they are supposed to negate the thousands other cases of Coptic girls who are taken away from their families…as if it makes us even?!
Xavier
Thanks for your response. Again, you pretty much said it about the rights of Muslims.
Red
Good to see u here too Red. Nice theory, but I hope you are wrong:)
Well, Bent, if you have a temper I must say you control it admirably here. But you're right, of course, it would not be right to return evil for evil. I guess we all need to take a deep breath and pray hard before we respond to your detractors.
From my side of the pond this has been an education. When I encounter Muslims in the U. S. I presume an equal footing. Moreover, I live in the Old South where we all have "Yes, Ma'am" drilled into our heads from an early age and automatically snap to attention whenever we have to speak to someone more than ten years our senior (I still do!)
So reading the posts of Muslim and Mohamed (who by his blog profile I see is also quite young) is fascinating--not to mention a bit disheartening--from a sociopolitical standpoint. I may be reading too much into their words, but I sense a presumption of their own superiority and a depressing lack of interest in even attempting to look at things from another's standpoint.
As we Westerners have spent the last few hundred years grappling with these issues, we tend to be pretty sensitized to such attitudes. As I read some of Muslim's statements I find myself wondering how they would play in other contexts:
"Miss Wollstonecraft, why don't you defend the rights of men in general as you do with women?"
"Mr. Ghandi, why don't you defend the rights of British Anglo-Saxons as you do with the Hindi?"
"Please, Uncle Tom, stop defending the Cherokee. Stick to your own kind!"
"Please, Mr. (Frederick) Douglass, stop objecting to the Mexican War. You're only supposed to argue for the emancipation of Black slaves!"
Apparently you can't be brothers in oppression with another faith. Why is that? Divide and conquer?
From my own history, how about:
"Miss (Ida B) Wells, are you trying to compare a gang of angry white men hanging a black man from a tree and setting fire to him while the local officials look the other way with an organized government policy of oppression in another country?"
Come on! Is it only systematic persecution when there's a paper trail?
Or, to be a little more current:
"Bishop Tutu, if you are going to criticise the Afrikaans, then please be brave enough to criticise yourself first."
I could go on, but I think the point should have been made. He who has ears, let him hear!
CMinor...i wish you did go on. That was wonderfully witty :)
Yes I must say I was slightly annoyed by the apparent superiority too. They may or may not mean it or even be aware of how it's coming across.
I guess like anything in life, at the end of the day, people will treat you however you let them treat you. I'm not one to snap at others and demand respct where I don't deserve it, but there's no harm in saying "listen mate; I don't appreciate how you're treating me here" (see my comment to muslim above). God said to be meek and humble, He never said to be a doormat.
Thank you again for your comments, always a pleasure to have the opportunity to see it your way :)
I commend you, Bent, for your calm and courteous reply.
muslim/Mohamed has a difficult time expressing coherent thoughts. It is really not much use trying to reason with him.
Whether this is due to a natural lack of intellectual discipline (I have argued with non-Muslims who are no less rambling) or the unavoidable irrationality and dishonesty that results from Islam is hard to tell.
cminor, Bent gets my vote!
egypeter, the exception demonstrates the rule!
Amillennialist
By the way, a murdering, thieving, enslaving, raping, lying pedophile could no more be a true prophet of YHWH than John Goodman could be Dallas Cowboys cheerleader.
Dante was too easy on the false prophet.
cminor said "So reading the posts of Muslim and Mohamed ... is fascinating--not to mention a bit disheartening--from a sociopolitical standpoint. I may be reading too much into their words, but I sense a presumption of their own superiority and a depressing lack of interest in even attempting to look at things from another's standpoint"
Bingo. Spot on cminor.
What took you (and lots and lots of other people as well) so long ??
One of the basic tenets of Islam is really quite simple, albeit sinister and illogical, that Muslims are right and non-Muslims are wrong, on all accounts. What follows, which to a large extent was ignored by the rest of the world but for the evil crime of 9/11, is how such tenet manifests itself in EVERYTHING in Muslims' lives and their relationship with non-Muslims. Take Egypt as an example where the Christian Copts are effectively second class citizens simply because of their religion, a Coptic President of Egypt is out of the question, no matter how good he/she may be simply on account of not being from the right religion !!
This is where the likes of Muslim, or for that matter his mother :), are, unable, incapable or unwilling to depart from a position they believe is right, and dare I say, not negotiable. Those who, through courage or folly, venture outside such position are either rewarded or cursed depending on where one stands.
Amillennialist:
Welcome! Thank you for your kindness, but anything I say I say because of God's grace, and as a result of learning from my good frineds (like yourself:))
Red:
Ohhhh...I had some suspicions before; it's just interesting to have them confirmed in writing. Of course, there was that tendency to assume that education and global access had mind-broadening effects.
Apologies to anyone by the name of Gandhi who happens in. I always manage to get that H in the wrong place; of course I realize it right after I've fired it off. Consider this an erratum!
إرسال تعليق
<< Home