Just Because You Don't See It...
For starters, please understand that I apply the same Egyptian hospitality in this blog as I do in my home and heart…all friends are welcome and encouraged to participate in all discussions. If for nothing else, for the selfish reason that I hope to learn from you all as you share your opinions with me. So please don’t get upset muslim, if Jack or Xavier or Red address you…they don’t do it out of malice I am sure…but it is an open forum.
Where to start?
Muslim, it is regrettable that you are disappointed by my comments. However, it seems it is you who misunderstood (whether intentionally or genuinely) what I was trying to say about religious freedoms.
The minor issue: I don’t believe I said a minor shouldn’t have the right to choose their faith. Let me clarify:
The law in Egypt states that a minor cannot change their name, religion or get married without their parents consent.
Many underage Christian girls were allowed to do precisely that without the authorities so much as contacting the parents to obtain their consent, or even to notify them of their child’s intentions.
"Of course, they wont agree :D What a fucken stupid law. "
Stupid or not…it is a law, and it must be upheld, just like all other laws must be upheld until such time that it is changed. If people don’t like it, they should lobby to change it.
They are called law enforcement agencies for a reason my friend…they are meant to uphold the law and protect the citizens.
The above means that the law enforcement agencies failed to do their job. Their job isn’t to pick and choose which laws are good and need to be upheld…or to which are stupid and need to be ignored.
This is why the issue of Marianne and Christine is indeed important and needed to be properly addressed…there was a clear failure by the authorities to do their job. The evidence for this is that the day Mubarak said “find the girls” they miraculously appeared!!
Having said that, I don’t think it is stupid at all for parents to have an input in their children’s decisions regarding something like religion. Parents are guardians of their child, responsible for ensuring their wellbeing and teaching them good values and morals, etc. I’m not implying parents should prevent their child from choosing their faith, not at all. But guidance is required for children or teenagers, who are by nature mostly impressionable and impulsive (and don’t say they aren’t…believe me when I tell you we all feel invincible and absolutely right when we are young. When you get to my age, and have the benefit of hindsight you’ll see what I mean)
"Any Christian who converts to Islam must have been kidnapped and forced," said you!!
WOW!!! Now I may be getting forgetful and slightly crazy…but I don’t recall ever saying that. Please give me a reference where I actually said that!
I did point out cases where this has happened in previous posts…I did say that it does happen but never that all those who convert to Islam are kidnapped. I know the discussion is getting heated and the comments long, but I’d appreciate it if you didn’t misconstrue what I’m saying.
"Wafa' Qustantenn was forced to return back to Christianity. But you don't want to say it. You simply deny. Why don't you write a new post about her rights to believe in Islam? "
Again, I don’t believe I denied anything. I pointed out that her situation was sensitive. Further I will say to you that I honestly don’t know what to think of her situation. How can I defend something I don’t know anything about?
"Yeah .. Let me tell you some useful info:
"It is illegal to be a Bahaai." :)
"It is illegal for a Christian to build a church without the president's consent." :) "
Thanx, but I knew that already. Here’s the difference:
Baha’is are either adults who have the right to change their faith…or minors who are the responsibilities of their guardians. Why should it be illegal to adopt any religion at all??
Furthermore, Bahaa’i families actually offer their children the opportunity to adopt whatever faith they choose when they reach the age of consent. How’s that for a useful fact?
Churches? Yeah, stupid law, but that’s why we’re trying to change it.
"Once they release the kidnapped person, what prevents him from returning back to his religion? "
Perhaps you give me less credit than I deserve for my knowledge of Islamic doctrine. Here’s what prevents them my dear friend:
7aq el redda!!!!
They would be killed if they abandoned Islam. Again, remember Abdul Rahman. Islam is a one way street…you keep walking, or you loose your head (literally)!
Hijab Issue: Now, Muslim women wearing the hijab in France can’t be compared with Coptic women wearing cross in Egypt.
You can’t compare apples with oranges. The law in France says: No religious symbols in government schools. So the same law applies to Jewish, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist adherents as well. Here’s the law reference if you want to look it up: law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004 Loi n° 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics.
As for those Copts hanging their crosses wherever they want, my earliest memory of walking the street with my mother is that of a bearded man in a white thobe spitting at her and cursing her cross.
As for church bells, need I remind you of the churches that were attacked and burned for no reason other than that Muslims in the village were offended by the ringing of the bells?
"kids? Moslem contries? international treaties?
Do you know what we are talking about, xavier? "
Yes I suspect he does…I for one understand what he means. You haven’t answered his question though.
Also, please don’t label the Western world as Christian. The Western world is a secular world…it is a gross misrepresentation on your part to call it Christian.
Finally, I will not dismiss you at all muslim. Nor do I think anyone else is trying to dismiss you. I have tried time and time again to see the discussion your way, and did my best to address everything you asked. Please accept my comment as a bit of advice or constructive criticism.
It seems that time and time again, you my dear friend have aimed only to antagonise. You have asked questions then dismissed our response. You have misconstrued and misrepresented things I stated. You have failed to answer questions we posed. Which at the end leads me to ask, as I am sure others are, what is it you are hoping to get out of this discussion?
If it’s to prove yourself right, then I suspect that’s something you need to prove to yourself. Often those trying to prove they are right and others are wrong, do so because they need to justify their own opinions to themselves.
If it’s to help guide us and show us the error of our ways, then thanks for the efforts, but no thanks. Every participant here has shown more than enough evidence that they understand exactly what they believe and why they believe it.
If it’s another reason altogether, please do share it because I for one am interested to know. Know this muslim, God knows I don’t harbour any resentment or hatred let alone annoyance toward you. I think I’m just confused by your need to attack or negate everything we say to you.
Now regarding proving Christianity:
Yes I do believe true faith starts in your soul. But I also never denied that proof is out of the question. You don’t like that we’re trying prove Christ’s divinity from the Bible…well, where else do you want the proof to come from? Can you prove anything about Islam from anywhere but he Koran and Ahadith? Can anyone for that matter prove their faith from anywhere but their own sacred text?
However, I’ll take you up on that challenge and show you that even Islam looks at Jesus as an extraordinary person altogether…Refer to this link:
And tell me how anyone could possibly believe that in the very least…even if you don’t admit His divinity, God would need to send anyone after this extraordinary prophet. How could you claim that Mohammad who was not celibate, who waged wars, plundered caravans, encouraged enslaving women and children and even had a lot for himself, accepted verses from the devil unknowing (in contrast with Jesus who rejected the trial by Satan)…how could he be the seal of prophets after a man like Jesus??
I reiterate, we aren’t here to try to convert you…you posed questions, and we attempted to answer. Your refusal to acknowledge our answers is odd. I’m not saying agree with us…but at least agree that we are answering you. Remember muslim, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence…just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it ain’t there.
I pray that the Lord bless you and give you peace.