الأحد، مايو 07، 2006

Co-existence? Sure!!...But..

Not if you are a Baha'i!!

Another example of the deterioration of the Egyptian mentality...a shameful debate is taking place as we speak, on whether to allow a group of people who follow the "Baha'i" faith to be recognised in Egypt.

Frankly, I know very little about the Baha'i faith, and I couldn't care less what these people believe. It's their issue!! But I do care...oh do I care!...that in this day and age, we are even having this discussion.

Now that I vented slightly, here's a background to the bemused amongst you who don't know what I'm talking about.

Reported in EIPR (Egyptian Initiave for Personal Rights) is a court ruling in favor of a Bahai couple who suffered blatant discrimination by our Egyptian government (who enjoy trampling the human rights of their citizens a bit too much).

The ruling was issued in a lawsuit filed by an Egyptian Baha’i married couple against the Interior Minister in June 2004 after officials of the Interior Ministry’s Civil Status Department (CSD) had confiscated their identification cards as well as the birth certificates of their three daughters, all stating their religious affiliation as Baha’i. The CSD refused to issue new identification documents unless the family agreed to identify as Muslim.

Not only that, members of the People's Assembly or "magliss el sha3b" have been outspoken in vilifying Baha'is (link ). The Muslim Brotherhood member Gamal Aql even going as far as saying they should be considered apostates (mortaddeen), and we all know what this means (remember Abdul Rahman the Afghan convert?)
وقال جمال عقل عضو المجلس عن جماعة الاخوان المسلمين ان البهائيين كفرة ويجب قتلهم قائلا انهم بدلوا دينهم
The man doesn't mince words...he came right out and called for their death!

But I don't blame him. They say you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears...Mr Aql's fruit seems to stem from the same tree that sprouted a fatwa decreeing the Baha'is are apostates, which was issued by Al-Azhar: considered a beacon for Islamic teachings in the Arab world (link)

والبابية أو البهائية فكر خليط من فلسفات وأديان متعددة، ليس فيها جديد تحتاجه الأمة الإسلامية لإصلاح شأنها وجمع شملها، بل وضح أنها تعمل لخدمة الصهيونية والاستعمار، فهي سليلة أفكار ونحل ابتليت بها الأمة الإسلامية حربا على الإسلام وباسم الدين.

Baha'i faith is just a mix of ideologies and religions, it contains nothing new that the Islamic Umma needs to improve its position. Furthermore, it is clear that Bahaism would only benefit Zionists and colonialists, as it is a faith born of ideologies that are but a war on Islam

Way to go!! I give them five stars for provocationion.

Then they go on to describe the Baha'i faith and traditions, which as I said before, is no concern of mine (nor should it be of Al-Azhar's beyond a philosophical or ideological difference of opinion or faith)

Then the Azhar's decision:

---------------------------------

أن الإسلام لا يقر أي ديانة أخرى غير ما أمرنا القرآن باحترامه، فلا ينبغي، بل يمتنع أن تكون في مصر ديانة غير الإسلام ثم المسيحية واليهودية لأن كل ديانة أخرى غير مشروعة ومخالفة للنظام العام.

Islam only recognises religions that are mentioned in the Quran. Therefore,the existence of a religion other than Islam, then Christianity and Judaism should be forbidden, as all others would be a disturbance to the general order

  • وأن الأزهر ليهيب بالمسئولين في جمهورية مصر العربية أن يقفوا بحزم ضد هذه الفئة الباغية على دين الله وعلى النظام العام لهذا المجتمع، وأن ينفذوا حكم الله عليها... القانون الذي يستأصلها ويهيل التراب عليها، وعلى أفكارها، حماية للمواطنين جميعا من التردي في هذه الأفكار المنحرفة عن صراط الله المستقيم.

Al-Azhar calls unto officials in our Arab Republic of Egypt, to stand firm against this group of people who oppose God's religion and the general order of the society. They must carry out God's order: to cut these people off and heap the dust on them and their ideas...in tinterestrst of protecting all citizens from apostasy and following these twisted ideas away from God's true straight path.

  • إن هؤلاء الذين أجرموا في حق الإسلام والوطن يجب أن يختفوا من الحياة لا أن يجاهروا بالخروج على الإسلام

Those who committed this crime against Islam and our homeland must disappear from existence, and not be allowed to declare their rejection of Islam

-----------------------------------

What would you do if you were a Baha'i living in Egypt?? How would you feel?

We've asked this question before, only with a different group of people concerned:

How would you feel as a Copt in Egypt?

How would you feel as a woman?

How would you feel as a secular liberal thinker?

The Egyptian society is in danger spiraling into the Whabi brand of radicalism that pervades Saudi Arabia. Not only are politicians and Azhar scholars promoting this hatred, the average person seems to agree.

On the popular program "Al Qahira Alyawm" (Cairo today), this very issue was discussed. A poll indicated that only 25% respondents believed Baha'is are entitled to full rights as Egyptian citizens!!!

I know one shouldn't rely totally on these statistics...after all it's proven fact that 86.47% of statistics are made up on the spot (sorry couldn't resist), but sadly I can believe this one. One caller said "we can't allow this to happen. What's next? Buddhism?"

My dear fellow Egyptians: I implore you, open your minds and hearts before you spiral back to the dark ages. What does it matter if someone wants to worship a different God? Until when will we remain fixated on what should be a personal relationship with God....no matter who that God is!!

To our knowledge, Baha'i's don't engage in sacrificing virgins and eating babies

We never heard them promoting mass suicide or brainwashing young people

We haven't even heard of them blowing up innocent people or declaring war on the world

Why can't we just give them their rights, and leave them alone to worship whomever they like. After all, isn't this the coexistence we hear so much about?

43 Comments:

Blogger xavier said...

Bent:
because to do so would reduce Islam as the greatest, most perfect most complete religion in the universe as just another belief. That's an affront to Arab sensibilities- aftsr all didn't Omar claim that the Arabs are the sustenance of Islam?

Further, Moslems would actually have to develop a sophisticated apologetics to persuade people of its blindingly obvious and simple doctrines. How unreasonable. If you don't grasp Islamic doctrine it's because you're an unbeliever or a wicked person of bad faith.

So much better to slander adhrents of other religions; better yet, kill'em 'cause they're an affront to Islamic cosmology

xavier

مايو 07, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

If you don't grasp Islamic doctrine it's because you're an unbeliever or a wicked person of bad faith.

you forgot insane :)

مايو 08, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Bent:
OK but that didn't cross my mind ;)

xavier

مايو 08, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

If one is to argue that Islam as a religion-cum-politicised doctrine is not dissimilar to Communism, Nazism, Maoism, and Muslims' thoughts and beliefs get similar brainwashing like the masses under those regimes, whereby Muslims are continuously manipulated to enforce the false notion that Islam is the only right religion, all other religions or beliefs are defective, with the followers of those other religions lumped together as being no more than misguided kafir, Zionists, Crusaders or infidels. However, the "degree of rejection and enmity" by Muslims is very much assesed on a need basis compelling tolerating Christians and Jews, but it is a different issue with "insignificant" minor "religions" be it Baha'i, Derooz and the like, which are definetly a no no with Muslims. After all which major trading or technologically advanced or even good holiday destination country follows such "religions"??, and who would stand for these Bahai's if they are abused or even obliterated from all the Muslim countries ?? not too many I suspect.
As to those peaceful Bahai's, may the Lord help you because not too many Muslims will, after all most Muslims are convinced you left Islam (Mortaddeen) !! shock horror and you ought to know what that means

مايو 08, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

Laughable, you are spending time here, trying to convince yourselves that muslims are devils while you are the peaceful angels.

Anyway, you should spend a few days reading the old testament to know more about the peaceful nature of Jesus :D

xavier:
I don't know why it seems strange for you that muslims believe that their religion is the "greatest, most perfect and most complete" religion in the universe .. don't you believe the same thing regards christianity? Oh, please tell the truth.

However, I think I agree with you in a point :) Islam is really a simple and obvious religion. It is the simplicity itself. You know, believing in one God is much simpler than believing in a God with three personalities.

red:
Communism, Nazism, Maoism, Islam ....
why don't you add Christianity, Jewdism and others?
Perhaps you really believe that your religion is peaceful !!!

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

It's strange.

Strange is the mentality of some within Islam. Fundies will never be happy unless everyone and everything is muslim. Period. What's the percentage of fundies in Egypt (like that idiot that said, "What next, Buddhism?")? 10%? 25%? 50? I'm not totally sure if I want the answer...it scares me. It's unbelievable. How are others to live with these people?? Egypt is walking a very very fine line right now. It IS on the verge of turning into a wahabbi style country like Iran and Saudi. What the hell then?? These diatribes against the Bahaii will be just the beginning. I too, don't know much about the Bahaii faith...but God bless them and let them be. Don't try and kill or convert them or whatever...just let them freakin' be. And the Copts too.

Thanks for the awesome translation of those death fatwas from Al Azhar's School of Hatred...

Your're the best Bent!

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Muslim:
If Islam is so simple than why do African Moslem still get the doctrine wrong?
Just because something is simple doesn't make it true.
The Moslem doctrine of God is oversimplied- so much so that it runs into serious problems. I find it impossible to accept that God is capricious. My classical example is the 10 commandments and the Moslem abrogation.

In any case, Michael Barbar's
blog
is outstanding and well worth a read.

xavier

مايو 09, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

Who told you that African muslims still get the doctrine wrong?

"Every generalization is wrong, including this generalization"

About the serious problems because of God over simplification, We don't have serious problems .. so, please, you don't have to be worry :D

The 10 commandments??? hmmm..
I don't think that there is a contradiction between the commandments and the Quran .. this is a personal opinion anyway.

But let me remind you that we (muslims) believe that the bible itself has been manipulated by humans several times. Actually, there are many parts of the bible whose writers are totally anonymous. Many christian scholars have confessed these facts.

By the occasion, you say that it is not plausible for you that God changes his constitution .. ok, please read the Gospels well ..
According to the Gospels, Jesus has altered many of the prescripts stated by Moses (e.g: pelting a prostitute, divorcing ..), even circumcision has been abandoned in christianity, though it was of a great importance for God in the old ages. Now you have to confess that your God has changed his mind ;)

For me, I don't think about it that way .. God states prescripts that is more practical for a scpecific era. Simply, that's all :)

Unfortunately, my English language is not good enough to argue about the bible in English .. but trust me, I have read the bible (in arabic) several times .. may be more than you !!

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Welcome muslim and thank you for your comment.

Laughable, you are spending time here, trying to convince yourselves that muslims are devils while you are the peaceful angels.

Who said all muslims are all evil? Or that all Christians are angels? I certainly haven’t nor has any of my guests as far as I understand.

What I did point out is reality, is it not? Have I made up the fatwa issued by Al Azhar? Have I concocted this whole plot to serve my purpose?

It has nothing to do with religion. If it were the Coptic church that issued this fatwa I would have been just as outraged…perhaps even more so, because my zeal for Christ’s teachings would have compounded my disgust at this mentality.

It comes down to this:

Do you as a person agree with what’s happening to the Baha’is?

Do you as a Muslim agree?

This is an issue of a group of people losing their right to live and worship freely…a right that God gave all of us when He gave us intellect and free will. If we don’t all band together to protect the rights of each and every member in our society…one of us will be next on the chopping board!

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Anyway, you should spend a few days reading the old testament to know more about the peaceful nature of Jesus :D

Thank you for the kind suggestion, but in fact I have spent the past 30 years reading Old and New Testaments, and the Quran and Ahadith too. I’m well aware of the true nature of Christ and that’s why I am still a Christian.

don't you believe the same thing regards christianity? Oh, please tell the truth

Sorry Xavier I know this question is directed to you, but I’d like to reply if I may.
Yes indeed everyone believes their own religion, or lack of, is the right path…otherwise why would they follow it??

That’s not the issue. The issue is nobody has the right to judge others as apostates and infidels…none of us has the right to take away the rights of another just because they don’t believe what we believe.

You know, believing in one God is much simpler than believing in a God with three personalities.

Who believes in a God with 3 personalities? That’s blasphemy. Our creed (qanoon el iman) says: truly we believe in ONE God (bil7aqiqati no2min bi ilahin wa7ed)

You have obviously misunderstood the concept of the Trinity.

Perhaps you really believe that your religion is peaceful !!!

Again, pardon me for answering a question directed to red, but yeah I for one do believe Christianity is peaceful…we call Jesus the King of Peace!! (Malik Al Salam)

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

But let me remind you that we (muslims) believe that the bible itself has been manipulated by humans several times. Actually, there are many parts of the bible whose writers are totally anonymous. Many christian scholars have confessed these facts.

Please allow me to remind you, that your Quran confesses in several spots that the Bible is indeed the word of God. Quran also says that God’s word can’t be corrupted…so how, pray tell do you explain that God allowed His word to be corrupted? (see this discussion)

According to the Gospels, Jesus has altered many of the prescripts stated by Moses (e.g: pelting a prostitute, divorcing ..), even circumcision has been abandoned in christianity, though it was of a great importance for God in the old ages. Now you have to confess that your God has changed his mind ;)

In order to understand why these things were changed, you need to take into account:
-Before the salvation humanity was living away from God’s grace
-The salvation we received by Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection was the start of a new age for humanity…the age of grace (3ahd el ne3ma)

God didn’t change His mind, our spiritual relationship with Him changed. We were reconciled with Him through Christ’s sacrifice. As such, Christianity elevates humanity from just living for the needs of the flesh…to a higher moral and spiritual standard.

When “eye for an eye” changed to “Love thy enemy”, don’t you agree that it takes a better person to forgive rather than obey their basic instinct to retaliate?

Is it not better to be merciful than to be judgemental?

Is it not better to concentrate on asking forgiveness for our own sins and not condemn others for theirs?

مايو 09, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

Bent le nel:
Thank you for the kind suggestion, but in fact I have spent the past 30 years reading Old and New Testaments, and the Quran and Ahadith too. I’m well aware of the true nature of Christ and that’s why I am still a Christian.

You read the old testament?? and you still believe that Jesus is peaceful?? Strange??
Yes, I believe that you have been reading your book for 30 years. But may be you only see what you want to see (please don't get offended).

How many times could you find that the God is the Lord of the soldiers(Elah El Genood إله الجنود) in the Bible? How many times had God subscribed to his chosen people while conquering the cities and killing men, women and children (they were all citizens, not soldiers)? Have you read enough about David, Solimon and the other devoted sons (and also warriors) of God? How many "Holy killings" are there in your book?
Let me repeat my advice .. please read the old-testament well.

That’s not the issue. The issue is nobody has the right to judge others as apostates and infidels…none of us has the right to take away the rights of another just because they don’t believe what we believe.

Yeah, no one has the right to judge others as apostates and infidels .. and also no one has the right to judge others as son of vipers, hyprocite , blind fool, evil and adulterous.

What I did point out is reality, is it not? Have I made up the fatwa issued by Al Azhar? Have I concocted this whole plot to serve my purpose?
It has nothing to do with religion. If it were the Coptic church that issued this fatwa I would have been just as outraged…perhaps even more so, because my zeal for Christ’s teachings would have compounded my disgust at this mentality.


Believing that baha'is are infidels is no worse than killing a person because he believes that the Earth is rotating around the sun !!! And Oh, there is a big difference, of course .. Al-Azhar is not inspired by God, but the patriarch of the Vatican is inspired by the Holy Ghost. Isn't he?

Anyway, if you are really interested in the rights of other religions, and if the language of hatred used by Al-Azhar sounds bad for you .. then why don't you read some of the publications made by the coptic church about the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Protestants?
Trust me, you will find the same language of hatred there (heretics, aberrant , perverse , lurer , tempter ...).

Who believes in a God with 3 personalities? That’s blasphemy. Our creed (qanoon el iman) says: truly we believe in ONE God (bil7aqiqati no2min bi ilahin wa7ed)

Don't get annoyed, I know you believe that God is one .. but he has three personalities :)
These words (I mean, three personalities) are quoted from the speech of a christian, not a muslim :)
Anyway, let it be three divine persons, three hypostasis .. any three.
I know the creed well, my mother teaches christianity in the university.

Again, pardon me for answering a question directed to red, but yeah I for one do believe Christianity is peaceful…we call Jesus the King of Peace!! (Malik Al Salam)

Yeah, and Allah also calls himself the Peace (Al-Salam)

Please allow me to remind you, that your Quran confesses in several spots that the Bible is indeed the word of God.

The Bible??!!! No, not the bible.
It is the Torat and the Injil.

The Torat is missing, it is not the first five volumes of the bible as you claim.

And the Injil meant by the Quran is the Gospel of Jesus, not that of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Thomas. Could you find me the Gospel of Jesus? You even deny that it does exist.

Quran also says that God’s word can’t be corrupted…

Yes, it is not corrupted .. it is missing.

so how, pray tell do you explain that God allowed His word to be corrupted?

You want me to explain it? This is too easy ..
God allowed many of his sons to follow the devil while he could stop them(couldn't he?) .. he allowed his followers to be defeated many times .. he allowed John the Baptist to be killed .. he allowed Usama Binladin to blow up the towers and to kill thousands of innocent people .. he allowed that mad man to kill the christians coming out of the church in Alexandria .....
And he allowed me not to believe in the Holy Trinity, though he could make me believe (couldn't he?).
And the list is too long.

Once more, it is not the Muslims only who believe that the Bible is corrupted .. but also many christian scholars have confessed that the Bible has been manipualted several times. You can't even tell me the names of the writers of every volume of the book. How could you believe in a text that you don't even know who wrote it?

And what Bible are you talking about? The Catholic's? the Orthodox's? the Protestant's? ... or what? You can't tell me which one of them is more trustworthy than the others. Please don't tell me that they are the same .. I have seen the differences with my own eyes .. and I am too tired of lies.

Please read more about the Bible in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia and you will know many useful things about the book.

When “eye for an eye” changed to “Love thy enemy”, don’t you agree that it takes a better person to forgive rather than obey their basic instinct to retaliate?
Is it not better to be merciful than to be judgemental?
Is it not better to concentrate on asking forgiveness for our own sins and not condemn others for theirs?


Yeah, and consequently God shouldn't have created the hell at all. I (as a muslim who doesn't believe that Jesus is the God) should enter the heaven because Jesus is merciful.
And also all the people should enter the heaven .. Hitler, Bush, ....?!!! They are christians .. aren't they?

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Moslem:

O where to begin. First, on infallibility. It,s limited ONLY to FAITH AND MORALS. That means that hen the pope has pronounced that Jesus is the Messiah or Mary was born free from original sin that's infalliable.
The pope can't make infallible
Second: the Gospel of Jesus are the Gospels of Matthew Mark, Luke and John. Those are the canonical Gospels THAT ALL CHRISTIANS follow. There's no such thing as the Gospel of Jesus. If it existed it would be a Gnostic text like Judas
Anonimity doesn't negate infallibility. Just because we don't know who an authour is, doesn't change the inerrancy of the text

Third you assert that the Bible has been manipulated and changed. Give the me names of the biblical scholars who claim that the bible has been corrupted. I want evidence.

Fourth: God allows his children to follow the devil? Curious application of free will and profoundly contradictory. God wants us to love him but he also gave us free will TO CHOOSE to be with him or to be separated from him (that's sin) However, given God's mercy, he instituted confession. God could force us but won't

Fifth: Sorry but you're confusing personality with the PERSONS of the Trinity. I grant that it's not easy to follow the logic but it's reasonable and rational.

Sixth: I've read Catholic apologetics addressed to Mormon nd Jevohah witnesses and I've never read such ugly words as apostates,etc. Nor has the Vatican nor the bihsops EVER issued death threats nor have the priests called for the murder of the Jehohah Witnesses nor Mormons in their sermons.

Seventh: the Orthodox and the Catholics share the exact ame bible. The Protestants remove the deuterocanoniocal books because Luther couldn't find any proof for his incorrect doctrine of faith alone. But Luther had absolutely no authourity to remove books from the bible.

As you say it's too long to go into details but you get the point ;)

lastly, I provided you with Michael Barbar,s blog. Do read it, it's very interesting. Also Mike Aqulina's Fathers of the church provides lots of information and historical background to the persons and their historical timeperiod.

مايو 09, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

Thank you bent el neel, your comments on Muslim's post stopped me in my tracks from ripping into his arguements- I'll however say that somehow Muslims never dissappoint by glossing over the real issues and launching into defence of Islam or attacking Christianty (and other non-Muslims) or both, while the major issues such as FREEDOM of belief (as an example) get buried under silly non-consequental points and counter points- Muslim friend, for God's sake spend couple of minutes to read what you'd written and the response by a Christian woman (that definetly does not lack in intellegence or faith), try to be impartial and tell me which of the two posts would please HIM most???

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Red:
Mustard seeds :) Think of them whenever Moslem or Sara visit the comment boxes.

Moslem:
I forgot to mention: it's not my personal opinion that African Moslem get the doctrine wrong, al Katani- a Moslem missionary director is the one who brought it up

xavier

مايو 09, 2006  
Blogger Egypeter said...

"I know the creed well, my mother teaches christianity in the university."

WHAT??????????

YOUR mother teaches Christianity at the university and you are still that CLUELESS on EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF CHRISITANITY??

God help your mother's students if what they know of Christianity is equal to your knowledge.

Muslim:

What is it?? What is the reason that I have never met a muslim on the internet with the same BASELESS claims that you have???

Is this misinformation taught to all muslims while they are still suckling? It's the same damn arguement that I can't handle anymore!!

"You guys believe in 3 Gods"

AND

"Your bible is manipulated/corrupted"

Get these notions out of your head, ok?

Is the concept of the "Trinity" impossible for a muslim to understand?? Why can't you comprehend it???

Don't worry muslim, it's not just you. Your other coreligonists can't understand the same things. All I can suggest is that you try and read the same things again but have somebody there to help you understand what it is you are reading. Good luck.

Peace

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger jack said...

Hello Everyone,
Sorry to come in after you begun such a great discussion.

Muslim, Jesus is only referenced a couple of times in the O.T. as in a “Christophony” like the priest Melickizedek. In relation to Jesus, I think you meant to say New Testament right?

In any case, about the violence we read in the Old Testament, you must first understand the context. No offense, violence as you know, is not what is evil, it is the reason for the violence. This is why I curse the suicide bomber and pray for the soldier who is defending my life. But back to the O.T., if you take a step back, the story of Israel is about a poor, nomadic, group of people who have made a covenant with God that He would bless them if they were faithful to Him. And so, you see them victorious over their enemies (because of their faithfulness) and then later conquered by their enemies and sent off to exile (because of their disobedience) and now especially through Christ is the offer of redemption.
Obviously it is a long story but I take the time to say all that to say is that you must understand the context of all the themes and issues to appreciate the reason we celebrate God’s love. I do not ignore the violence but see it as God’s hand upon them. Depending on how you closely you read the Old Testament, there are people and people groups who become allies of Israel and some become believers of Jehovah and give up their idols because they witnessed “the power of the God of Israel”.

How does a nomadic people group leave Egypt without an army, how do they capture the land of Canaan with only a small army, and how do they lose the kingdom of Israel with the most powerful army in the world?
“Because it is not by might, not by power, but my Spirit says the Lord” Zechariah 4:6.

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger jack said...

“Actually, there are many parts of the bible whose writers are totally anonymous. Many christian scholars have confessed these facts.”
I am going to need some specifics as well on this. Which books do you mean, which Christian scholars and what are they actually saying in the context? As you said your Mom teaches Christianity at the University so this shouldn’t be difficult.
Further as Xavier said, “Anonimity doesn't negate infallibility. Just because we don't know who an authour is, doesn't change the inerrancy of the text”.

However, yes, there are a few books that we are not certain who the author actually is, like the book of Hebrews. But it is not “anonymous” as if someone who we have no idea wrote this and the church fathers said, “Sure, let’s throw it in the cannon!”. Not at all. As in this case (Hebrews), there is a short list of who it could have been but not conclusive to assign authorship to one person specifically. This is as simple as I can break it down. Although I would be happy to help on this line of thought If you are truly interested.




You still have addressed the issue of the post. What do you think of the Baha’i?

Also, I am curious to know what you think of the Abdul Rahman (the Afghani convert)? Do you believe he should be or should have been killed since he converted to Christianity?

Bent El Neel as done a fine job explaining the difference between Jesus’ & Moses’ teachings, and I would humbly add that Paul further explains that Jesus has come to fulfill and complete the Law (of Moses). And when Bent explains that Christ has brought us the age of grace, you have to understand how important that is in our theology (our understanding of God). This grace is revolutionary, it has changed everything, especially salvation. In essence, the grace of Christ is the dividing line between the Christian and his spiritual forefather, the Jew.

Xavier has given you a solid premise for the idea of free will. God has not allowed you to believe in the Trinity because He loves you enough NOT to force you to believe. It is your choice to believe. As you have been taught to respect Jesus, you then know that He said, “Those who seek shall find”. Of course this is in the context of the truth of salvation. But it’s up to you to seek, ask, and knock, no one will or should force you to believe – not by coercion, not by the sword. My friend, this is a huge difference between our ideologies. A God that forces His truth is not a loving God, and therefore not God, and therefore not true.

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

Mustard seeds ?!!Thank you, anyway.

Let me start with red.

I'll however say that somehow Muslims never dissappoint by

glossing over the real issues and launching into defence of Islam

or attacking Christianty (and other non-Muslims) or both, while the

major issues such as FREEDOM of belief (as an example) get buried

under silly non-consequental points and counter points


First of all, I didn't launch anything. I came here and read your

comments. You compared Islam with Nazism and Communism. You gave

yourself the right to insult Islam while there is no muslim is

there to defend his religion.

Secondly, about the FREEDOM of belief .. The Quran says:
2:256 There is no compulsion in the religion; the proper way has

been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and

believes in God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that

will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

And Al-Azhar's decisions are not obligatory for Muslims. We don't

have a religious authority like you.
Is this enough?

You asked me ((which of the two posts would please HIM

most
???))
The answer is:
Only the God can answer this question :) If the God is not the

Christ then he won't be pleased to see his sons (I mean you)

worshipping someone else. Will he?

red, You have to consider something very important.
God has created a hell to punish those who don't believe in

him. What do you think of this?

xavier:
About the first point, Why didn't the Holy Ghost inpire the pope

that he was doing the wrong thing? Does the Holy Ghost really

inspire him? So why it used to be silent?
And what about all what I have mentioned concerning the old-

testament .. you just skipped them?!!!


And you made a contradiction in your second and third points.
In the second point you said:
Just because we don't know who an authour is, doesn't change the

inerrancy of the text

And in the third point you said:
Give the me names of the biblical scholars who claim that the

bible has been corrupted. I want evidence.

Ok .. I, too, want to know the names of those who authored the

Bible before believing in it. Isn't this plausible?

About the fourth point .. The God who allowed his prophet (John,

the Baptist) to be killed, is the same God who allowed his word to

be missed. You get the point?

The fifth point: No Comment

The sixth point: I didn't mention the apologetics. I am talking

about the publications of the coptic church.

The seventh point: There are many books that were removed, then

returned back, then removed again ..
read more about the old Church Councils.




Now I have a question ....

Let's assume that I don't believe in anything, could you give me

any evidence that Christianity is true? Could you prove to me that

the divine trinity is a truth? Could you prove to me that Jesus

even existed? Could you?
I believe in Christianity if I can find an evidence.
I don't know if you can trust my words, but I really mean it .. I

can believe in any religion if a a proof does exist. But there is

no evidence that God is a trinity.

What makes me believe in Islam is that I have found a lot of

evidences in the Quran. The Quran states that the universe was

created by a Big Bang (a scientific fact).. It states that the

universe is expanding (a scientific fact).. It mentions the stages

of the development of the embryo (a scientific fact).. It states

many other scientifically-proven facts .. besides many prophecies

that occured in our present days ..
That is why I believe that Muhammad PBUH is a prophet.

Let me repeat it .. GIVE ME AN EVIDENCE THAT GOD IS A DIVINE

TRINITY .. I WILL BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY IF YOU DID .. GIVE ME A

SINGLE EVIDENCE.

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

Sorry, something went wrong with the last messags, so the lines aren't ordered well.

I think I have replied to you Jack.

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Muslim:
Michael Barbar happens to have written a continuing series on Jesus research- who he is, the life and times of Israel in the first century. I suggest that you read the posts as they'll explain how Christians scholars have approached the study of Jesus as well as the controverseyes in the methodologies.

As for proof of Jesus' existence- well about 2 months go archaelogists found the pool where Jesus performed the miracle of washing the blind's man eyes. They were able to date it very accurately because they found 2 coins from the timeperiod pressed into the cement stairs at the time of its construction
At the beginning of this year, archeologists also found the house in Cana where Jesus performed the miracle of changing water into wine.
Here's Mike Aquilina's article on honest pagans and the historical Jesus /a

As for the Trinity. I provided you some links in a previous post by Bent. Please look at the archives and you'll spot them. In the meantime here's Michael's post on the Biblical basis of the Trinity
Trinity is also an act of faith. Knowledge and reasoning can only so far; then comes the act of faith. As Tertullian elegantly stated: faith of things unseen

On infallibility- let me reiterate it's limited to matters of faith and morals. The concpt of the Magisterium is difficult for Moslems to grasp as it's very difficult for Catholics to realize that Moslems have no central authourity thus anyone can interpret Moslem doctrine as they see fit. By contrast, we're not free to interpret some doctrine as we want. To deny Jesus' divinity or Mary's immaculate conception orto demand the ordination of women as priests when it's impossible to do so means we're no longer Christians

On where we got the bible. Check out this book

xavier
P.S. Mustard seeds refers to a a parable Jesus told. As you know mustard seeds are so small we can't see them; yet when they flower, mustard becomes a huge tree. Jesus is making the point that faith is unseen but that if properly nurtured, it become so large everyone can see it as well as being fruitful. Which ties into another well known parable- by their fruits you will know the trees.

xavier

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

xavier:
Thank you, the links are really full of information. But still I haven't found any evidence that makes me believe in anything.

Ok, I will accept the archaelogical studies in our case(though such studies are usually used to prove the theory of evolution, too), but still they provide no evidence that Jesus is the God.

Well, we have reached a good start, which is (Jesus did exist). But I think that nothing more than that has been proved.

There is something that you have to take care of .. As I said before, I assume that I don't believe in anything, neither the Bible nor the Quran itself. So, before making a study of the Biblical or the Quranic basis of anything, you have to prove that these books are not lies.

Remember, I told you before that I have already read the Bible several times in arabic(except for some parts). I can see that believing in the Trinity is an easy task if one believes that the Bible is truthful. However, why should I believe that the Bible is true. There are many other false religious books, so what makes the Bible different.

It may be unacceptable for you that I don't believe in the "blind faith", but, well, I really don't believe in the blind faith!
If Muhammad is claimed to be a prophet then someone should provide me with an evidence, or I will not believe in him.
Muslims do provide some evidences; and I can see that these evidences are relatively plausible. Besides, as I said before in my first post, believing in the mighty GOD - without much sophisticated philosophies - is something that can be easily proved .. but can you do the same thing with the Trinity?

It may sounds to you as if I am a man who don't want to believe in Jesus. Believe me, however, if I could ever find any evidence that the Trinity is a truth, I will believe in it.
I can't imagine that God has created the hell to punish those who don't believe in him, while in the same time, he doesn't provide any evidence for them to believe!!

Does it sound plausible, xavier?

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hey Guys
Thank you all for this lively discussion.

Jack: always good to hear from you...thanks for the compliment but i believe it is you guys who are doing a great job at this. My humble self is not as well read or versed as you guys :)

Red; you took the owrds right out of mouth (or should I say keyboard). Thanx mate

Pete; good to see u again matey :)
Xavier; thanks for your contribution, enriching as usual!

Muslim; lots of interesting points...thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

OK, now where to start...oh yeah:

WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH THE ISSUE OF THE POST?????????????
sorry, i thought i'd yell this one out cos I think it's been lost in the midst of this discussion.

I do hate repitition but I feel i have no choice:
This is an issue of a group of people losing their right to live and worship freely…a right that God gave all of us when He gave us intellect and free will. If we don’t all band together to protect the rights of each and every member in our society…one of us will be next on the chopping board!

Why is it that everytime I have pointed out a problem in Egypt, someone has to say :

"oh but...but...your Bible is a fake!!!...well...the crusades and inquisition...oh...oh...and...you're worshipping 3 Gods"!!!!!!!

Where am I loosing you mate? I know I'm not Pulitzer prize material but I'm not that bad at expressing myself, am I?
Please, go back and read my post.

I criticised Gamal Aql, Al Azhar and the Egyptian mentality. I said we have to change our outlook...not muslims have to change...I addressed the Egyptian society as a whole.

If, by your own admission Al Azhar doesn't represent or speak for Islam and Muslims, why then do you see me attacking Muslims and Islam???

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you are Egyptian? I saw your comment in Arabic on egyptcamira's blog and i get the impression you are living in Egypt.(unless you are a different muslim, in which case i apologise for the mix up)

I only ask because this discussion "jumped the shark" (if you're not familiar with this expression, the equivalent is "fell on its ass") when you suggested that your mother is teaching Christianity at university.

Please, don't insult our intelligence...i grew up in Cairo and I know a thing or two about Egyptian schools and universities. The Christian faith is only taught at schools to Christian students by Christian teachers...ONLY. At Catholic schools, nuns and teachers are absolutely not permitted to teach or discuss the Christian faith with Muslim students.

Unless they have suddenly decided to introduce Christianity at universities over the past year or two????

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Look Muslim; I'm not offended or annoyed by your opinion. Personally I couldn't care less what or how you believe...it's your right to believe what gives you peace.

It seems that you are not as charitable though. You came here and launched an attack on the Christian faith, firing as you go misguided missiles at the Holy Bible and God Himself...not to mention the church and Christian themselves.

You can't see why I still believe Christ is the King of peace? You can't believe I read the Bible?

Well, I can't believe that you still want to believe the message of a man who waged war on the surrounding tribes, even after agreeing to a peace treaty...
A man who in his fifties married a 9 year old child...
a man who ordered his followers to plunder defeated tribes...
a man who wiped out tribes of innocent people...in the name of God?
Then after he did, he handed out the women and children as slaves to his followers!!
a man who received messages from the devil unknowingly believeing they are from God...then God had to correct him and abrogate those verses.
You believe in a God who pre destined humanity, and already determined who's going to hell and who's going to heaven?
A God who allows His word to "go missing"?

If you really think Islam is the last purest message from God, then wouldn't the moral code set by Islam exceed that of Judaism and Christianity?
Wouldn't Mohammed be a better man than Jesus?

Yet it is Jesus who is the only one in humanity who was not touched by satan at his birth, and that's an Islamic teaching I am quoting here.

At the end of the day, we all believe in what we see is our salvation...
I choose Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour.
You choose Allah and Mohammed.

Fine!!!

I'll go back to my point: what does our difference in faith have to do with our rights as citizens or members of society?

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

You have brought up so many things that I found odd...I am not interested in debating them with you. Frankly I am tired of hearing the same memorised accusations by Muslims all the time.

These accusations will neither affect my faith or harm my church. God said of the Church "the gates of hell shall not prevail against her"...

But to quote my favorite villain, Colonel Nathan R. Jessop: I don't have the time, nor the inclination...to debate these lies and misunderstandings time and time again.

You guys feel free to keep going. I'll keep watching, and I'll contribute only if i feel i have something relevant to say.

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

Well said bent/ Neferteeti
Against the Muslim's normal modus- operindi of "confuse the issues" you, xavier and I am sure lots of onlookers could see the "put up or shut up" banner being hoisted.
Muslim, hate to tell you, but your time's up buddy
I believe we collectively love you and I also believe that you have the right to believe whatever you wish to believe.. 100%- Now don't you think Bahaiis are just as entitled to that as you and me. Yes or No

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

PS And bent we must be as smart or as dumb as each other- you keep saying that I took the words out of your mouth. I envy you though on your ability to express your beautiful Coptic Christian beliefs, which, I unfortunately lack- God Bless you

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

That is the ability to express, not the beliefs

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

Bent:

Yes, I am the muslim who wrote in the "Egyptian Camera" blog.

You forgot that Chriatianity is also taught in Al-Azhar university.

Well, I can't believe that you still want to believe the message of a man who waged war on the surrounding tribes, even after agreeing to a peace treaty...

But they didn't comply to the treaty.

A man who in his fifties married a 9 year old child...

Yes, but you have forgotten to tell us that the girl was engaged to someone else before him !! and you have forgotten to tell us that it was a tradition in his society to do so !!

P.S please tell me how do you believe in a Bible that tells you the stories of some prophets commiting incest and illegal sex relationships.

a man who ordered his followers to plunder defeated tribes...

Not a big difference from David or Solimon, the devoted sons of the GOD.

a man who wiped out tribes of innocent people...in the name of God?

Innocent?? Are you sure?

Then after he did, he handed out the women and children as slaves to his followers!!

Yeah, he would better leave them in the desert.

a man who received messages from the devil unknowingly believeing they are from God...then God had to correct him and abrogate those verses.

If Muhammad PBUH were a liar, why had he abrogated the verses that caused both muslims and non-muslims to unit under Islam. Have you thought of that before?

You believe in a God who pre destined humanity, and already determined who's going to hell and who's going to heaven?

You are mixing the points. God knows who will go to the hell and who will go to the heaven. Doesn't he?
But of course, if he simply determined who will go here or there, so why had he created the world?

A God who allows His word to "go missing"?

Yes, a GOD who allowed his prophet (John the Baptist) to be killed .. he didn't save him while he could.

A GOD who allowed many of his temples to be burnt or brought down .. he didn't save them while he could.

A GOD who allowed Muhammad to write a book that many people believe it is from GOD.

If you really think Islam is the last purest message from God, then wouldn't the moral code set by Islam exceed that of Judaism and Christianity?
Wouldn't Mohammed be a better man than Jesus?


Islam is more practical than the other two religions.
If I killed your father, Jesus PBUH would order you to forgive me, Muhammad PBUH would order you to kill the murderer.
Of course, the former order is more spiritual as long as the whole story is just a story. but when it comes to reality, what do you think is more practical?

Besides, the bible is full of unethical teaching ..
Prophets commiting incest ..
Jesus (the GOD) drinking wine until he got drunk ..
and others ....

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

red:

don't you think Bahaiis are just as entitled to that as you and me. Yes or No

Yes.

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous muslim said...

Please everybody,
You have missed me in a critical point, I asked you to give me an evidence that makes me believe .. but you didn't give me.
Let me write the question in other words..

Tell me what makes you believe in Jesus .. Is it because you were bron in a christian family?

Just put yourself in my place .. whould you believe in such things without evidence?

Bent:
If you don't want to get into a debate then please give me one last answer ..

Your loving God, Jesus, the King of Peace .. Will he burn me in the hell forever, just because I haven't found an evidence that he is the God?

Please I need an answer.

مايو 10, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

Muslim said "Your loving God, Jesus, the King of Peace .. Will he burn me in the hell forever, just because I haven't found an evidence that he is the God?"
Muslim, Jesus did forgive a thief being crusified while HE was on the Cross, and asked our Father toforgive those who crusfied HIM "for they not know what they are doing"

مايو 10, 2006  
Blogger jack said...

Bent, I can’t stop laughing at the Col. Jessup line. You are hilarious! Initially I glanced over the name and couldn’t figure out why this sounded familiar. I never paid attention to his first name. “Who is this guy - a literary or philosophical figure? Wait IT’S JACK NICOLSON from a FEW GOOD MEN!” People looked at me funny when I laughed out loud in the coffee shop. The laugh was well worth the awkward moment.

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger jack said...

Dear Muslim,

After reading the past several comments, I hope we can bring some closure to a couple of matters. By the way, thanks for answering the original question that
began this post.
There are many issues to bring up, I mean no disregard to many good points, this is simply what I felt compelled to respond to.

Back to:
“Ok .. I, too, want to know the names of those who authored the Bible before believing in it. Isn't this plausible? About the fourth point .. The God who allowed his prophet (John,the Baptist) to be killed, is the same God who allowed his word to be missed. You get the point?”

Not sure if I understand your question. Do you mean did the author of Hebrews (for instance) believe in the Gospel of Christ before he wrote this book? The answer would seem obviously yes. As you read the book, the author affirms his belief.
There is no one who authored a book of the Bible before believing in it.
Further, Christians believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of our Scripture. It is not a man-made creation.

You have repeated this point several times of God allowed John the Baptist be killed. I am not trying to sound condescending (as in trying to put you down intellectually. Everyone’s English is fantastic but as the ignorant American, I am not sure I can assume you know everything. I digress) when I ask why is this an issue for you? God allows evil because he allows men and women to make choices because He created us with free will. This is the very nature of love, allowing who you to love to choose whether to love you in return or not love you (or to love someone else). From my vantage point, your question could be anything, Why did God allow His begotten and beloved Son Jesus to die, why does God allow pain and suffering, why does God allow killer tsunami’s to kill hundreds of thousands, why does God allow the reality of suicide bombers and the technology to create nuclear bombs and crooked politicians … I am certain we all can think of thousands more but the answer is generally the same. God does not approve of the evil of men, He allows it because He has given us free will, because He loved us. His hope is that you choose to love Him and enter into a relationship with Him beginning now and continuing through eternity. This is done through the faith in the work and person of Jesus Christ.

There are so many points here that need addressing.
Like the Big Bang being scientific fact. It’s only a theory. (In my opinion, a flawed one at that). In order for it to be scientific fact, it would need to be tested and able to be demonstrated consistently. The creationist and the evolutionist only have the beginning of their scientific process (the hypothesis) and both feel that they have evidence but neither can reproduce in an experiment, thereby limiting these thoughts to “theory”.


“A man who in his fifties married a 9 year old child...

Yes, but you have forgotten to tell us that the girl was engaged to someone else before him !! and you have forgotten to tell us that it was a tradition in his society to do so !!”

I can respect the traditions of society, however, let’s say it how it is. A society that believes in killing off others because of their skin tone or belief system is a violent and murderous society. One that censors it’s citizens is an oppressive one. One that weds its pre-adolescent children to middle-aged men is incestuous one. The principles or rules or traditions of a society do not justify its morality.

You will have to show me the incestuous prophets.

Again much of the violence in the Old Testament needs to be understood in its context. As you read through Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles (to name a few), you will see that at times David is right with God and other times David has betrayed God. He later repents and returns to God but still suffers the consequences of his evil actions. For instance his adultery of Bethsheba creates a lineage that will later wage a civil war with each other. I can probably give you more stories then you can give me on “godly” men who did ungodly things from Abraham, to Moses to the Apostle Peter. What you must realize is the Scriptures are not ultimately exalting these men but ultimately exalting God’s work in their lives in spite of themselves. Being a flawed individual who is pursing to walk right with God, the sins of my spiritual forefathers reminds me of their failures and more importantly God’s forgiveness and God’s grace.

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger jack said...

Regarding us proving “Christianity” to you, again, we are back to ideologies not being empirically verifiable or scientific. At the end of the day you must choose who or what to put your faith into. Though it would not be wise, you can even put your faith into yourself.

In a spirit of fairness, and I though I can’t speak for everyone, if you are truly seeking, we are here for you. However, no one is interested in wasting time. I am a little suspicious because Xavier gave some links that you quickly dismissed. In no way am I saying that you must believe in Christ after reading our links or our words, but those that are truly seeking do not dismiss so much information so quickly. Please understand what I am trying to say by this, if you are honest and truly seeking, we welcome you.

Before we get to why we believe (or why I believe), I cannot accept the premise that I must assume that you know nothing. It’s not a fair assumption nor is it an honest one. It’s like we are buying a household appliance from a salesmen. I am not trying to sell you a “faith”, a religion, or an ideology. Though I enjoy apologetics and feel that Christianity is the most probable and the most rational of philosophies of life, I am not out to convince you or sell you or coerce you. Should you or anyone come to Christ, it is should be out of a response to His love. It is a giving of the heart, mind, and soul, (not just the mind).

All that to say, I believe because He loved me enough to die for my sins, rose from the dead. He also said, that those who believe in me shall have eternal life. The word for “believe” in the Greek means to “live by”, (again emphasizing it is the offering of our entire lives, not just our minds).

The next question, “Did he really die, and more importantly did He really rise from the dead?”
I can give you an abbreviated explanation refuting the theories that have attacked the resurrection off of my blog. It is not as thorough as our scholars and theologians but I don’t have those links available to me at the moment.

Why I Believe in the Resurrection

If interested, we can go over the validity of Scripture. In short, if Jesus really was resurrected, then everything He said and believed would be validated for after all, He would be would He claimed He was - the Son of God.

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Red; thanks :) you are too kind indeed. In fact it I who am overwhelmed by the strength of your conviction and that of Pete, Xavier and Jack...(and David too although he is not here at the moment).

We are all members in one body:Jesus Christ, and we do complete each other. Through all our discussions i see evidence of understanding of our faith...contrary to the "blind faith" accusation that you directed at us Muslim :)

Jack; glad to make you laugh mate...like i said if I can make one person laugh everyday...it's a day well spent :)
as for your comments....it's freaky, but you too took the words right out of my mouth, lol.

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Muslim
Thanks for your response. Just a couple of things:

- They teach Christianity at al azhar: that's news to me. But in any case one would hardly expect to learn the true Christian faith at al azhar!!

Meaning, if a stranger came to you saying he is learning all about Islam in a Vatican run course, would you think that this guy is learning the true Islam as you believe it????

No doubt the Christian faith they teach at al azhar is vastly different from the Christian faith half teh population of the earth believe in.

If you want to learn about something, you go to the experts!! In the very least, you shouldn't take ALL that you learn from a source specifically opposed to this thing (does this even make sense...sorry if it doesn't, but i think you get my drift)

It's one sided and unbalanced!

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

-Evidence to veracity of Chrisian faith:

I'm a little baffled. You say you like Islam because it is simple and that's how a faith should be. Then you say you want us to "prove" the trinity to you!!!
If you believe in simplicity of faith...why do you think we should we should provide proof to anything??

There is nothing blind about our faith. The fact you can't comprehend, or refuse to comprehend Christian concepts doesn't negate these concepts.

I for example find it extremely difficult to understand so many mathematical theories, that mathematicians find a walk in the park.
On the other hand, I can easily understand chemical structures and reaction mechanisms whereas my friend who studied arts can't.

Does this mean mathematical theories are untrue, or wrong?
Or chemical reactions are wrong or non existent?

Having said that, I am not suggesting that there is no proof of what we believe. But like Jack said, if you just want to get into this discussion to negate everything we say before you think about it, whats the point?

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

-your responses to my opinion of Mohammad and his message:

Thank you, but I wasn't expecting a response. Mainly because I knew what you would say. That wasn't my point.

I was trying to show you that sometimes its all about prespective.

You are prepared to believe in something that is utterly absurd to me...and vice versa.

Also, my other point is, Muslims believe Islam is the last message that completes all others and Mohammed is the last messenger. As such his conduct should have been superior to current practices of his time.

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Finally, you ask why we are Christians?

I have said it before to another Muslim friend; and I'd like to say it again to you:

True faith doesn't start in the mind and then make its way to your heart. True faith starts deep in your soul then shakes your whole being and lights up your heart and mind.

That's why I am a Christian. Its not because I was born to Christian parents...but because God's love for me touched my heart, and His sacrifice for me saved me from sin and death.

Beacuse I see Christianity as a path of constant self examination and elevation to higher spiritual grounds.

Because I am always assured that God loves and accepts me as His child.

Because Christian teachings are far superior to any moral code I have ever known.

Because on many occasions I know in my heart that I felt God's hand guide me and save me.

Because after the age of "Love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek", and "In the world ye shall have tribulation but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world"...
why would God revert back to the sword and fight and eye for an eye????

مايو 11, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

By the way:
Your loving God, Jesus, the King of Peace .. Will he burn me in the hell forever, just because I haven't found an evidence that he is the God

He will not refuse you knowledge if you truly seek Him, for He says:
هانذا واقف على الباب واقرع.ان سمع احد صوتي وفتح الباب ادخل اليه واتعشى معه وهو معي.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revalations 3:20)

He's not going to throw you in hell...He's as close as the door to your heart!

مايو 11, 2006  

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