الأربعاء، مايو 17، 2006

Dear Mohamed: The Original Sin and the Salvation on the Cross (partII)

An apology is in order…it has been too long since the first of my responses to you Mohamed, and for this I am sorry. I wish I could dedicate so much more time to this exercise but unfortunately time has become somewhat of a luxury in this day and age. This correspondence between us is valued by me and I want to make sure I give you an accurate picture of the Christian faith. Now time to thank you for your responses and for your open mind and heart. This is promising to be a fruitful discussion indeed.

So in the last post I told you about the original sin and what it means to us as Christians. Just to clarify again, the original sin refers to the state of absence from God’s grace. This is the only thing we inherited from Adam and Eve. We agree that whatever sins we commit in our daily life are our own responsibilities and we must repent in order to gain forgiveness.

Now you posed another set of good questions:
Why couldn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve?
Why did Jesus have to die?

David has done a wonderful job addressing your questions, but please allow me to offer my response as well.

Why couldn’t God just forgive Adam and Eve (and subsequently all of humanity I suppose)?

God indeed is merciful…in fact God’s mercy is infinite and absolute. But absolute mercy needs absolute justice in order to be perfect and complete. Of course we believe God is perfect and complete…it follows that He must be just as well as merciful.

Let’s revisit our King and his exiled son once more:
Ask any parent about their love for their child, they’ll tell you it’s the strongest love they feel for another human being. They would gladly sacrifice anything including their life for the sake of their child.

But is a good parent one who lets their child do what they please, then say “it’s ok…I forgive you”?? The king warned his son against a certain act, the son ignored the father’s warning. Believe me, as a parent having to discipline my child, I have often felt a wave of sympathy when she cried and said she was sorry after she did something she wasn't supposed to…I have come so close to saying “oh it’s ok, forget it”. However, I know in my heart that it’s not fair for me to raise a child without any understanding of right and wrong…of action and consequence.

God gave us free will and intellect. If He simply just forgave us for everything we did without a basis for the forgiveness, what use is our intellect and free will? What would differentiate us from animals? How would we understand the consequence of our sins?

Another point to consider is that we both (Muslims and Christians) believe that God punishes sinners who don’t repent. And we established that we both agree that God is absolutely just (3adel). It would follow that He can’t simply forgo evil and overlook sin, nor can He arbitrarily forgive anyone without there being a just basis for forgiveness. Meaning: God said that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) لان اجرة الخطية هي موت
So basically it is unjust for God to forgive someone, unless they can pay for their sin.

So how is it we are supposed to atone for our sins?
In Judaism, it was tradition to offer sacrifice to God for remission of their sins.

11لأَنَّ نَفْسَ الْجَسَدِ هِيَ فِي الدَّمِ، فَأَنَا أَعْطَيْتُكُمْ إِيَّاهُ عَلَى الْمَذْبَحِ لِلتَّكْفِيرِ عَنْ نُفُوسِكُمْ، لأَنَّ الدَّمَ يُكَفِّرُ عَنِ النَّفْسِ
11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (lev 17:11)


And


22وَكُلُّ شَيْءٍ تَقْرِيبًا يَتَطَهَّرُ حَسَبَ النَّامُوسِ بِالدَّمِ، وَبِدُونِ سَفْكِ دَمٍ لاَ تَحْصُلُ مَغْفِرَةٌ!
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Heb 9:22)

Also in Islam, the concept of sacrifice is not foreign. Nor is the concept of life for life (Or substitutionary atonement). Look at the account of our father Abraham when God told him to offer his son as a sacrifice. Sura 37 verse 102


[102] Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (the son) said: "O my father! do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one practicing Patience and Constancy!"


[103] So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

[104] We called out to him, "O Ibrahim!

[105] "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

[106] For this was obviously a trial,

[107] And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice

Note the use of the words sacrifice ذبح او ذبيحه and ransom فداء


That’s precisely what God did for all of humanity. He offered us a ransom so we don’t have to pay the wages of our sin: death, but so we would have eternal life.

As for the concept of sacrificing oneself in the history of the human race in general, it’s sufficient to consider soldiers in war sacrificing themselves for their countries. Or perhaps a parent sacrificing their life to save a child, or a rescuer risking his life to save someone in distress.


Considering all this, and the fact that God is omnipotent, all knowing, all seeing and sovereign…it should not be too difficult to accept that His absolute justice demanded payment for the sin, and His absolute mercy offered us the ransom for this sin.

For the next post, I hope that with God’s grace I am able to address your second question regarding why Jesus had to die on the cross.
Peace be with you and all the best for your impending exams.



Just a side note regarding your comment about those who die for their message:
"It's a good thing to die for the sake of your message,and this is what Istishhadyeen are doing and accused of 'terrorism' specially in Palastine. "

Well, I beg to differ here. It’s admirable when you sacrifice yourself for that in which believe…not so when you’re taking down other innocent lives with you. What have those people committed to deserve this untimely horrible death? Why make a decision their behalf to take away their life for a cause they don’t even know about? Having said that, please understand I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian cause…I just reject the notion of violence in all shapes and forms. OK, that was enough of a digression :)

51 Comments:

Blogger jack said...

Great post.
Yes, God is Love, but He is also Holy and Just.
How blessed we are.

مايو 17, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Excellent explanation of God's forgiveness. We are so prone, especially today, to imagine a God who merely says, "Presto, you're forgiven!" whenever we wish. But if we are free, reasoning beings, what incentive would we then have to be moral?
I think it was C. S. Lewis who observed that "God wants sons, not servants," and therefore we have free will. If we do only what is required of us, how can we be truly free?

مايو 17, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

BTW, I had been thinking about some of Muslim's "evidences" in support of his own belief, and decided to do a little research. If he comes back you might suggest the following site:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Articles.htm#science

While I don't see eye-to-eye with the founder and authors of this site on everything (Most are rationalist atheists or agnostics who see all religion as "dying" and whose views on moral issues are often not in line with mine,) I think they do a reasonably good job of analyzing claims of the Prophet's prophesying scientific knowledge that was only confirmed later. A few articles run to the antagonistic but most are pretty matter-of-fact.

مايو 18, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

In a way I miss that little bugger- It just is not right that we all agree to agree. Bring back Mossy, Bring back Mossy.... Bring.....

PS Bent.. yes it was my Blog but I forgot my damn pass word !!
DONT laugh

مايو 18, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

On the other hand, Bent ought to have a break on occasion--she'll soon make the Summa look like a pamphlet with all the writing she's having to do. I'm sure she has a real life that also needs attention!

I had a classic attack of Catholic guilt after posting that link--after all, I wouldn't want to lead anyone in the directon of atheism. I will say that (though I'm far from a logician) that I believe those articles on the site that deal specifically with the issue of whether there is a God rest on the assumption that all being is as we perceive it--therefore if it doesn't follow our laws of physics, chem, logic, etc. it merely doesn't exist. No allowance is made for the possibility that there are things that aren't limited by our physical universe.

Anyhow, as I was curious as to where in the Q'uran universe expansion might have been mentioned, it was for all its faults a useful resource. I remember having read the embryology references elswhere and having concluded that they really didn't add anything new or especially accurate to the pre-medieval Natural History canon.

مايو 18, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed Meshref said...

I'll put this comment here until I'll be able to put it on manalaa as it's not working not, it's reply to liston son:

I'll answer them all, and by the way, you didn't get anything useful to be answer, but any way:

1- http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=7644

Do you think that:
‏واللائي لم يحضن ‏
‏فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ ‏

is equal to

2سُرَّتُكِ كَأْسٌ مُدَوَّرَةٌ لاَ يُعْوِزُهَا شَرَابٌ مَمْزُوجٌ. بَطْنُكِ صُبْرَةُ حِنْطَةٍ مُسَيَّجَةٌ بِالسَّوْسَنِ. 3ثَدْيَاكِ كَخِشْفَتَيْنِ تَوْأَمَيْ ظَبْيَةٍ

OR
فأكثرت _ أهوليبة _ زناها بذكرها أيام صباها التي فيها زنت بأرض مصر وعشقت معشوقيهم الذين لحمهم كلحم الحمير ومنيهم كمني الخيل ))
?!!!!!!!!!!!!

2- I may be so weak in arabic because I didn't get what's wrong in this:
بنية ‏ ‏العباس ‏ ‏هذه وأنا حي لأتزوجنها ‏

(Even it's not Quran)

3- You don't see that it's not Quran too?!!!
This is Sona, which means people go to the prophet asking him about what to do and what not to do, as when you go to your priest asking him whether it's 7aram or halal to have sex with a dog, at this moment, no one could say: "Heyyy, christianity are saying sex with dogs", because this is not THE BIBLE, I can't say this.

4- تستمتعوا ‏ ‏يعني ‏ ‏متعة النساء ‏

Again not Quran, and mmmm, when you get married you won't make sex or what?!!!

5- What's this?!!!
At previous links it wasn't Quran, and now it's not even sona!!!!
I think next time you'll get me quotes from she7' el game3 eli ganboko!!!!
I didn't get you el Baba Shenoda's words, I got you words from bible!!!

6- Same as 3 (not Quran, not sona also!!!!)


Soma ektafety be eih?!!!
Enty 2olty 7aga aslan?!!!!

And again, I am not the one who opened this, it's another christian who said that Quran is full of sex, and I just replied to show him that the bible is like borno story when compared with Quran!!!!

مايو 19, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

Mohamed Meshref said "I may be so weak in arabic...."
Well Mohamed, I can see you are weak in English as well, not to mention your arguements as well !!
And until you dramatically change on all accounts, I humbly suggest you take an observer position. And that's putting it very nicely.

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed Meshref said...

Weak in English?!!!

And by mentioning this, do you think that the word "arguements" exists in English?!!

They may have updated the english that I knew in which the last time I saw it, it was: "Arguments"

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed Meshref said...

And in addition to the spelling mistake, your words are full of grammatical mistakes too ;)

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Hi All and thanks for the comments.

Jack Tell me about it!! I thank Him everyday for giving me the blessing of living in His light :)

CMinor: Absolutely love the quote: God wants sons not slaves"

you are right I do have a heap of stuff to do...you're a mum too and I'm sure you understand what life with a 3 year old is like :)

But i do enjoy these discussions and i've been lucky this past week that I had tiime to spend on them.

I understand what you mean about the guilt thing...but don't worry, Mohammed is a bright young man and he's far from going down the path of being an athiest.

Red
LOL!!! too late mate, I was already laughing! But not to worry, sounds like something I'd do as well :)

Now Mohammed Meshref is here cos I invited him to come over. We've been having an interesting discussion regarding some Biblical verses on manal and alaa's blog (www.manalaa.net) and I told him he is welcome to come here to continue it, since I didn't want to take over their blog for the purpose of a religious debate, when they intended it to be a discussion in human rights in general.

Mohamed seems to have a misunderstanding of God's word in the Holy Bible and with God's grace, perhaps we can show him what our faith is all about.

Lets be as welcoming to Mohamed Meshref, as we are to Mohammed Fadly (boy this is gonna be confusing) because remember Red; 14You are the light of the world--like a city on a mountain, glowing in the night for all to see. (Matthew5:14)
So lets show the world the light of Christ :)

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

And last but not least; my new guest Mohamed

I want you to know you are welcome here and I'm happy to have the opportunity to discuss these issues with you. Please feel free to use whichever language you choose.

Please note that this blog is very different to Manal and Alaa's blog. I detest the use of profanities to express an opinion, so please remember this as you write to me, if you choose to keep writing to me.

I will not stop you, nor will I delete your comments or edit them. But I will thank you to remember that if you choose to have a fruitful discussion with respect, it will at the end of the day be a benefit for all involved and we can all learn something from each other.

If, however, you are here just to antagonise or pick a fight or simply to attempt to defile things we hold sacred as Christians, you will simply earn a chilly silence!! I refuse to be dragged down to this level of useless dirt slinging at religious sacraments.

Now regarding the comments you posted here. Thank you for taking the time to respond, but you haven't actually added anything new to the discussion.

Furthermore, you seem to discount the fact that my references were for Hadith and not Quran!!! Is Hadith not as important? Isn't the prophet not supposed to be a role model to be followed? So you see my references are indeed significant.

Also, all the references you quoted are from the Old Testament...which we do as Christians hold as sacred as the New Testament.

What you fail to understand is the reasons for including the Old Testament in the Bible:

1) It tells of the creation

2) It explains the original sin: without understanding the original sin a Christian couldn't comprehend the need for salvation

3)It tells the story of God's people as they moved through the ages. This means it tells of their good and bad deeds. That is why you would find a lot of references to sins such as: idol worship, adultery, violence, etc... It is not that the Old Testament encourages committing these sins...it's simply an account of what happend, what to avoid and how these sins alienated them from God's grace.

4)It contains prophecies of the coming of the Saviour. These prophecies are essential because they clearly illustrate that the Saviour is Jesus Christ. So the Old Testament sets out the proof of His divinity and shows the fulfillment of God's promise that is to come.

5) As with a child growing up, one matures with age. There is much that you may do as a child that you wouldn't do as an adult. That's why we needed to see the Old Testament to understand that with the coming of Christ, we as a human race have reached spiritual maturity.

In the old Testament, before the salvation on the cross, they believed in "eye for an eye". Think of a child again. If another takes away something from him he may scream, hit, kick, etc. But as an adult, he matures and develops his communication skills so that he is able to ask for it back, or decide he'll just forgive the other person. He knows how to exercise his free will and can decide what to do.

That's why in the "age of grace" Jesus says to love our enemy and bless those who curse us...instead of eye for an eye.

6) The Song of Songs and Ezekiel and some others you quoted are not meant to be taken literally and they have a lot to do with a spiritual relationship with God, or "spiritual adultery" as in Ezekiel.

I know this may not have answered your questions, but hopefully it is a start. If you do choose to continue, I and my good friends here will be happy to help answer your questions (they are alot smarter and better spoken than my humble self). If you do not, then may the peace of God be with you and thanks for the discussion so far.

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed Meshref said...

As usual, every question I ask, you answer another answer, as example, last time I asked about your opinion as Egyptian, and you answered by the truth behind the story, the time after it I asked you to bring me some of Quran words which you say that they are at the same level of sexuality like what I've mentioned and you failed, just brought some stuff which are not Quran at all.

And now when I talk about what you have mentioned, I found you talking in some else again!!!!

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed Meshref said...

Any way, it's my turn to tell you that Iam the one who fell disgusted now ;)

Enjoy your life and you know?!
It's a matter of few years and you'll know the truth (but when it's too late).

I'll not talk again, as it's usual (I don't know if they teach you this or what), as when I talk with any christian in such stuff, every question I ask, I get small part from the answer and then found the rest talking about something so far from my question!!!

Enjoy living with holy sperms and I still didn't know your opinion about this byu the way and whether Egyptian sperms like hoursed or not ;)?

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Sadly, my good will and welcoming words were wasted and misplaced!!

Once my anger subsided, I actually started to laugh!! How many times have I heard this phrase before:It's a matter of few years and you'll know the truth

or something similar about my apparent ignorance and blind unknowing faith to my Muslim guests...most of whom are almost half my own age and so deep in their own ignorance of my own beliefs.

Is it arrogance? Is it fear of opening oneself up to understanding, or even listening to another point of view? Is it complete refusal to even acknowledge there is another point of view?

Whatever it is, i actually pity anyone who lives like this!! believing that only they are right, and everyone else must be wrong! Only they know, and everyone else lives in ignorance!

And when you try to explain your own differing point of view, you are obviously not answering the question correctly, or you're ignorant, or you're in denial...etc...

For this reason, I give Mohamed Fadly credit for being mature enough to avtually say "ok, why don't you tell me what you believe"

It seems that Mohammed Meshref didn't understand, or didn't want to understand what I said to him...he is more occupied with Ezekiel 23:19...how can God talk about sperm, he asks? The fact I was trying to set the scene and introduce some facts about the Bible that one needs to understand before attempting to interpret it was just an exercise in futility!!
Perhaps our young friend Mohamed is not familiar with the fundamentals of proper research, and fact finding. Perhaps sperm is far more important to him.

Whoever said its the West that gives Muslims a bad name obviously hasn't met young Muslims of this type!!

مايو 19, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

cminor said "So reading the posts of Muslim and Mohamed ... is fascinating--not to mention a bit disheartening--from a sociopolitical standpoint. I may be reading too much into their words, but I sense a presumption of their own superiority and a depressing lack of interest in even attempting to look at things from another's standpoint"
Bingo. Spot on cminor.
What took you (and lots and lots of other people as well) so long ??
One of the basic tenets of Islam is really quite simple, albeit sinister and illogical, that Muslims are right and non-Muslims are wrong, on all accounts. What follows, which to a large extent was ignored by the rest of the world but for the evil crime of 9/11, is how such tenet manifests itself in EVERYTHING in Muslims' lives and their relationship with non-Muslims. Take Egypt as an example where the Christian Copts are effectively second class citizens simply because of their religion, a Coptic President of Egypt is out of the question, no matter how good he/she may be simply on account of not being from the right religion !!
This is where the likes of Muslim, and lately Meshref, are unable, incapable or unwilling to depart from a position they believe is right, and dare I say, not negotiable. Those who, through courage or folly, venture outside such position are either rewarded or cursed depending on where one stands, or end up being accused of being mentally disturbed.
I'm sorry I plagiarized (my own post) in the "razy" exchanges with Mohamed and Om-Mohamed, but I think it is totally valid with Meshref, and future visitors of similar persuation

PS Meshref I stuffed up the spelling and the grammar, but you got my point... right ??

مايو 19, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Oh, boy,
it's disorienting to come in mid-conversation!

So we've now established that sex is frankly discussed in both the Bible and the Q'uran and Hadith, and that Mohamed M. is an even bigger grammar nerd than I am. (Just a hint: you get farther with people when you correct their spelling pleasantly!)

I'm going to have to reserve comment on this discussion until I'm a little clearer on the subject matter. I've got a pretty good idea what passages in the Bible M. M. might be referring to as "pornographic" and Bent has helpfully supplied some specific books. Other than a strict general prohibition in Leviticus, however, I don't recall anything about dogs. So I have to assume our boy is trying to be insulting. We'll see what else comes over the ether, I guess!

BTW, thank you, Bent, for your astute remarks on my latest scribblings. You make some excellent points, and are spot on about the STD issue.

مايو 20, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Red You freaked me out for a moment here buddy, lol...I thought it was just an intense case of De ja veux (is this how you spell it??) Anyways, I always thought you were being too harsh on the poor dears, but this one is certainly sowing seeds of doubt in this regard into my heart!! By the way, i think you meant Muslim and Om Muslim :) it wasn't Mohamed we were talking to in that post. Confused yet? I am getting there!

cminor
It was a pleasure to visit your blog and learn more about you and your thoughts :)

The discussion I was having with Mohamed Meshref started on another blog (in Arabic anyway so it won't be helpful to just refer you there). Basically another person stated that the prophet Mohammad was somewhat of a womaniser and there's a lot of smut in Islam... or something to that meaninig anyway.

Well, our young friend here was inflamed by the suggestion, but instead of using reason to defend his faith and prophet, he thought it apt to cut and paste some Biblical text which he says proves the Bible is "full of smut" and can't possibly be the word of God.

From the outset, i was tempted to use the "people who live in glass houses..." but I didn't wanna lower myself to that level. So i basically just had a go at him in a restrained way.

Well! He kept insisting I tell him what I think of Ezekiel 23:19-20. Everytime i tried to explain the meaning of the chapter and that it refers to "spiritual adultery" and not adultery in the physical sense, and that the women in this chapter are actually a reference to two cities not two women...he just insisted I tell him what i think of Ezekiel 23:19-20...

sorry, I'm laughing so hard I just about falling off my chair here...hehehehehehe...I just realised why 23:19 sounded so familiar to me....Monsters Inc...if a monster came in contact with a kid.,....hehehehe...that's a 2319!!!

OK, composing myself again now. Anyway, so he's so hung up on this verse that he chucked his little tantrum here cos I won't tell him what I think of this verse!!! I'm sorry, am i missing something here? Did i not explain the whole Old Testament thing, and the spiritual adultery thing...what does he want?? Does he expect to shake the foundation of Christianity as a whole based on one word?

Here are some other verses he "objects to":
-Song of Songs in general
-proverbs 5:18-20 and 7:10-18
-judges21:20 and 16:1

What he failed to do however, is to read the whole chapters. Because for example, proverbs 7:10-18 tells of this adulteress who attempts to seduce a man...then in proverbs 7:24 God tells His children to beware of the adultress (i suspect He is referring to sin by the adultress) and to not be lead astray by her.

I know he is speaking out of ignorance because he asserts his arabic is no good, but his comments on the other blog are mostly in Arabic. It sound slike he read a Deedat book (a Muslim scholar who made it a hobby to slander the Holy Bible) and thought that he now holds the key to unravelling Christianity...maybe he should talk to Dan Brown!

Sorry for rambling on. I'm in a good mood (just came back from church actually, it was a wonderful evening of prayer and contemplation). What I wanted to get across to our absent-never-to-return friend, is that :

you can't learn to run before you walk

You can't learn reaction mechanism before you understand molecular structure

You can't understand Shakespeare before you learn English

And you can't hope to understand a Biblical verse before you understand what tHe Holy Book is all about!!!!!!!!

You understand me don't you Cminor???

مايو 20, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Bent & Cminor:
You've highlighted an interesting sociological phenomomenon: this unmerited sense of superiority that Moslems have. It's smug and it's counterbalanced by the deep sense of despair they have.

Frankly, we can argue about the inerrancy of the Bible and Koran but what's often missing from the Moslems is a sense of humbleness. That for the moment they suspend the apriori belief that the Koran is all perfect and learn how Christians approach the bible, etc.

Unfortunately, there's nothing ins Islam's intellectual heritage that permits discourse. Everything is absolute and if it's not in the Koran etc it's BS, or doctored, or lies and if you insist well we'll just blow you away kaffir!

So the best is to present the faith, then let the mustard seed grow. Even if we shurg our shoulders

xavier

مايو 20, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Okay, I'm hip now. I'm checking out my Jerusalem Bible right now & am on Ez. 23. (normally I'd use the New American edition because it's better referenced but this one was handy.) The header at the beginning of the chapter says,

An Allegorical History of Jerusalem and Samaria

The rest is a bit earthy, but people of that time didn't hold much to Victorian standards Practically everything else that dates from that time was also pretty earthy, be it Hebraic or otherwise.

For that matter, what I recall of early Islamic literature was that it was pretty earthy. As was the Q'uran & much of the life of Mohamed that I've gotten.

In the Bible most of the salty stuff is pretty matter-of-fact, anyway--not provocative so much as reporting the facts relating to the case. And without excusing Samson's behavior (can we cite "Men are such dogs" as a Biblical truth?) at least the harlot was willing!

A wire report run in my local paper this morning related Saudi Arabia's obesity problem and the difficulty women in particular have of getting exercise. It cited a pamhleteer who warned parents that allowing their daughters into locker rooms and exercise classes might cause them to lust after each other's leotard-clad bodies! What can one say to someone who thinks this way? (I also had to wonder what kind of abuse the pamphleteer had in his own past to get such ideas, but that's tangential.) Oh, for a little Theology of the Body!

BTW--deja vue

مايو 20, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Cminor:
That's another problem with Islam. This putrid obsession that just looking at the bodies makes you lustful and wanting to bed women (or men in the case of women ;)) I often wonder if Islam absorbed Gnosticiim or some other anti-material heresy as it sweeped east to west?

There's something deeply pathological. I'm not aying Islamic society go to the opposite extreme and 'oprahfy' the subject either but there does need to be some frank discussion about arranged marriages and the suffocating oppression of women

مايو 20, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

xavier said "That's another problem with Islam. This putrid obsession that just looking at the bodies makes you lustful and wanting to bed women (or men in the case of women ;))"
The Pendulum swung a number of times in Islam’s cradle, the Arab peninsula where promiscuity was the norm at the time of Islam’s prophet to sort of prohibition in the ensuing centuries, and now you end up in the basket case of Saudi where, sex and intercourse rules the Saudi life, a microcosm for the followers in Arab countries and Islamic non-Arab countries like Pakistan, Malaysia etc
If I may rephrase xaviers sentence “This putrid obsession ….. makes you lustful and wanting to bed women (or men !!! ;))”
And I might add, albeit without hard evidence, the practice of same-sex "relations" are prevelant in all the above places.

مايو 20, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Red:
Thanks. Since I'm ignorant of the scope of same sex attraction in the Mideast (though I'm quite sure that the phenomenon exists, Mideasteners are humans with all of the flaws and strengths of the species) I preferred to just leave it at good ol fashioned hetereosexual lust.

In any case, Mideastern society has its own sociological pathologies just like we have ourown

xavier

مايو 21, 2006  
Blogger Carolanne said...

Now to be #23. You've done well Bent and have expressed your views (and facts) with grace and truth.
I've just found your site and read all the way down to your "Making Memories" post which I really enjoyed!
By the way, we Aussies really do have different grammatical structures to other countries!

مايو 21, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi Neferteeti,

I'm going -if Allah willed- to reply on main post after about three or four days.

Just two points about your discussion with Meshref:

*I heared about a part of the Bible talking about a man and a married woman making harlorty and the man describing body of the woman.The question is why it's existed in a Holy book?!!

*Hope for every side to respect the other side.Not because you don't agree with my point of view so I have the right to make irony from you.That what Islam teaches us,and I think that also Christianity.

Bye,

مايو 21, 2006  
Blogger CMinor said...

Actually I've read somewhere that Mohamed/Islam had some Nestorian influence--this was the heresy which held that the God-nature in Christ was distinct from the man-nature. I believe they tended to the old classical Stoic/Cynic disdain for the physical world and the body. I've also read something indicating that Islam contains elements of Arianism, which denied the divinity of Christ. They may have had some similar hang-ups.

It's a bit funny, actually, to be constantly seeing these dicta on what should/shouldn't be in a Holy Book. The Bible is, after all, part historical document and part legal codex; why the expectation that everything should be sanitized for general audiences? Moreover, why the assumption that primitive people writing several thousand years ago must adhere to standards of propriety that are far from universal even in our own time?
Anyway, there's no lack of prurient mysogyny in the Q'uran.

مايو 22, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Carolanne
It's a pleasure to have you over :)
Always nice to meet another Aussie mum. Thanks for your kind comment and for giving me another blog to put in my favorites list.
Cheers

مايو 22, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Mohamed
Thank you for responding. Take your time, I understand you have exams to prepare for.
Please don't misunderstand my comments as an attack on all Muslims. I am very pleased to get to know you and indeed any reasonable person who is willing to respect others point of view. My discussion with Mohamed Meshref started badly and ended worse...he simply didn't want to hear me out...It seems he just wanted to offend.

As for the question regarding the married woman, i think you are refering to Proverbs chapter 7 (أَمْثَالٌ) الأصحَاحُ السَّابعُ
But it is actually refering to how sin can seduce the unprepared, and that God is trying to tell us not to follow our bodily desires and be seduced by the harlot (sin)
here's the link if you want to read the chapter and see what I mean...note especially verse 24.
Proverbs in Arabic

مايو 22, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Mohammed
Sorry I posted the last comment before I closed it.

Just wanted to wish you well in your exams and hope to hear from you when you have time.
Peace be with you

مايو 22, 2006  
Blogger Amillennialist said...

I don't suppose Meshref will address Mohammed's pedophilia?

مايو 23, 2006  
Anonymous Red said...

amillenialist said "I don't suppose Meshref will address Mohammed's pedophilia?"- that will only happen when pigs fly
Meshref, Mohamed et al live in denial, believing in a God that tells to kill (the idolators) while chanting Allah-o-Akbar !!, calling such blood-thursty doctorine "religion", covering their women (to enforce their submission) and rewarding the men folk with oodles of virgins, milk and wine in Coockoo land, justifying their Prophet's crimes and paedophelia with incomprehensible crap that does not stand the test of time. Bottom line is they'd only address whatever seeing it through the warped vision provided to them by their doctorine

مايو 23, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi Neferteeti,

There is no problem about the lateness,the only problem is that I don't hear from you :).
But if you prefer to take more time in every response aiming at a perfect reply to include all points,I think it'll be better.
I also think that it will be a fruitful discussion if blessed by exchanged respect and clearness.

First of all,I hate the discussion which take the way of exchanging accusations and swears and having a close-mind.I don't think that it's out of bad start;but it's out of a strong belief and a way of life for Christians that every Islamic thing is bad(However it's the best)and with a Muslim you must use bad language and insult him and his God and his Prophet and all his beliefs……etc.All that without any contemplation in these beliefs.Can't you notice that Neferteeti?!!Don't you remember my discussion with your American friend?Don't you see red words and way of speech?Did you have a look on cminor words?!!!!!!As for you I think that you tried to be neutral(and did it:)).And my advice to be mannerly wasn't for you at all but for some others:).
Any way I don't want to get away from our basic issue(Understanding current Christian faith)but it was just a word must be said to put limits of discussion(all are welcomed to join us but by exchanged respect),and also Islam order me when I see a wrong thing to do all my best to change it,,and the wrong thing here is not respecting faith of others.In Islam we don't believe that Jesus is a God (but a great Prophet),but we don't use bad language,and are ordered to deal with –specially- Christians justly and kindly(I have a point here:You mentioned before that some Muslims said on a website(or another thing,I don't remember)that current Christians aren't the same as Christians mentioned in Qur'an.The thing which you must know that Muslims take Fatawa from scholars(Sheyokh) not public Muslims).And another information for you,we don't insult Buddha and his followers(an example for an earthborn faith).


In fact I meant by the story of married woman these part:
مااجمل رجليك بالنعلين يا بنت الكريم! دوائر فخذيك مثل الحلي صنعه يدي صناع .2 سرتك كأس مدوره لا يعوزها شراب ممزوج . بطنك صبرة حنطة مسيجة بالسوسن. . 3.ثدياك كخشفتين توأمي ظبية. .4 عنقك كبرج من عاج. عيناك كالبرك في حشبون عند باب بث ربيم. انفك كبرج لبنان الناظر تجاه دمشق .5 رأسك عليك مثل الكرمل وشعر رأسك كأرجوان. ملك قد اسر بالخصل .6 مااجملك وما احلاك ايتها الحبيبة باللذات ! .7 قامتك هذه شبيهة بالنخلة وثدياك بالعناقيد .8 قلت : << اني اصعد الى النخلة وامسك بعذوقها >> وتكون ثدياك كعناقيد الكرم ورائحة انفك كالتفاح وحنكك كأجور الخمر : لحبيبي السائغة المرقرقه السائحة على شفاه النائمين
So notice the mention of فخذيك ,سرتك,بطنك,ثدياك.If you asked an ordinary man:"When you read or hear this detailed describe of a woman,how do you feel?!!"if he replied:"No thing!"Be sure that there is wrong thing in him.(Please really ask any man,and tell me what his reply is)
The feeling which must be related to reading a Holy Book is that you're over skys and inner peace and spiritual good feeling,but in fact the feeling related to reading this part is lust.There is a thing called bashfulness الحياء and I think that it completely away from it.
I have two question for you:
*Are you as being Christians can read sexy stories and see sexy pictures?(Is it Halal?)I mean here stories which have in the ending an advice not to do that?!!(I don't intend any irony but I want to know your belief in this point)
*Can you as being a woman read this part in front of men?


Now I understood,you believe that Jesus died because wages of sin is death ,so instead of death of all sinners he died and after that a sinner just ask God for forgiveness and don't have to die. Hope that I understood it.

But if this was your belief,it still 'An innocent pay the punishment of a thing which he didn't do'.
In another word 'God Himself paid a part from the punishment'.It's like you with your daughter telling her that you'll punish her to show her understanding of right and wrong…of action and consequence(I liked it)and how you're just,in the same time you'll say to her:"I'm going to pay a part of your punishment to show you how I like you,and how I'm merciful with you."

As for Qur'anic quote I want you to notice that Ishmael didn't did a sin,but Allah ordered Abraham (in the picture of vision)to slay his son,just to show his submission to Allah not because of a sin.
And also notice that it was a ram as ransom,and in Judaism an animal.So what is your credit than Ishmael as a Prophet,that made God Himself provide Himself as a ransom?!!!


In Islam we believe that Adam and Eve were banned from eating from the tree,but they ate so they must be punished,so they have been removed from paradise,and Allah gave Adam some words to say to forgive him and to show by them that he is regretful for the sin he did.So the punishment was removing from paradise and going down to earth.

The thing which I don't understand is that you say that ..we have inherited this separation from God, we come to the need for salvation and then said in your last post ..,the original sin refers to the state of absence from God’s grace. This is the only thing we inherited from Adam and Eve.
So I don't understand; Slavation from what,if you just have been separated from God's grace (as a result of Adam's separation)?!!By another word; 'Salvation' means that there is a sin,and being son of a Adam who has been separated from God's grace isn't a sin.

And another thing which I don't understand is: 'He removed them from His presence in paradise, but He still wanted their salvation.'
I understood this is that it's two punishments ,Am I right?!!!

You said 'So basically it is unjust for God to forgive someone, unless they can pay for their sin.'
In one word I want to understand;Is Jesus (regarding to your belief) came to wash out original sin,or your sins or both of them?!!!!And did he washed out original sin of Adam and Eve?!!


I want to you to know that when I give examples for your belief(like all statements started by 'It's like..'),I don't intend any irony but in my daily life I do that,and also it help me to understand facts in life.

A subsidiary point;you said that Mohamed Meshref was wrong that he just read this part and didn't look for parts before and after,So don't you think that you limit yourself on reading Qur'anic verses which order fighting without looking to explanation(Tafseer)of them,reasons of revelation,way of application and verses before and after?!!!

I'm also in a good mode so please let me steal your words:)..

you can't learn to run before you walk

You can't learn reaction mechanism before you understand molecular structure

You can't understand Shakespeare before you learn English

And you can't hope to understand a
Qur'anic verse before you understand what the Holy Book is all about!!!!!!!!

Am( you) right?!!!!! :D :D :D

I want to add a question for your next post:'How God die?!!'

By the way;what means 'Original sin' in Arabic?!!!

It's a very good thing to find conjoint points between us,and hope to be our goal through this discussion.

I think that it will be hard for me to gather between studying and our great discussion,so take AAAAAAAAAAALL your time replying me:).
Any way when I find time between an exam and the other I'll try to have a look on your reply and reply.:D

Have a good time,

مايو 24, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

David,

Don't worry at all about being late,it's a worth respecting thing to promise and pay back,and I'm sure that you have the same will towards this discussion,that I have.

Lie is a very bad thing,so I won't lie and claim that I understood what you want to say.Any way don't bother yourself by re-explaining it,it's not a very important point.

Hope to read my reply for Neferteeti,

Bye,till next time,

مايو 24, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Please have a look on my last post on my blog(Clean fun).

Thanks.

مايو 24, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Mohammed:
It,s good that you're taking the time to learn what Christins believe. My suggestion is to read the Cathechism of the Catholic church (I think it's available in arabic but I'll have to defer to Bent, Egypter and the other arabic speaking Christians for confirmation.

You'll have to be more clear by what you mean of sexy pictures?
In general, because of the Incarnation (Jesus second person of the Trinity) took flesh (cf John 1;1) Therefore it's halal for Christians to sculpt, paint, photograph people and objects. Of course there are limits such as pornography, scandalous photos,those that invade private life etc. That these events happen doesn't take away the halal aspects

Careful: Christians distinuish btween 2 types of sin venial (minor) sin and mortal sin.
The difference6 Mortal sins are those committed against God (in the bible Jesus also refers to sins against the Holy spirit but since it's the 3rd person of teh Trinity. that's God)
Such sins would be murder, blasphemy, taking communion when you're in state or mortal sin and haven't confessed yet,
St Paul refersto MORTAL sin.

I understand your difficulty:
Islam denies sin exists (in Christanity there was a heresy called Pelganism) Since sin doesn't exist you can commit just about any bad act as long as you repent because God is merciful and compassionate.
He is; but Christians would add that the sinner needs to repent because he KNEW his acts were sinful but committed them anyways. Which brings us back to free will which Moslem deny.
You have to follow the logic: free will means that we're repsosnible for our good and bad acts. God wills that everyone do good but is sadden by sins.

However, because he's merciful and compassionate, he insituted confession so sinners could ask for God's forgiveness and the strength not to fall into temptation to commit teh same sins again (cf the Lord's prayer at the end: and lead us not to temptation but deliver us from evil- Bent and the others will give you the Arabic version)

I'll defer to Bent and the other Arab Christians but know that as a Latin Christian, we regard Issac not Ismael is Abraham's heir. So whatever virtues Ismael had, they're irrelvant to Christanity. Sorry to be harsh but Ismael has no importance to Christians
xavier

مايو 24, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

أزال أحد مشرفي المدونة هذا التعليق.

مايو 25, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Davivd,

I want to clarify that it's not you the (Neferteeti's American friend) but she is another one who know herself her name and also Neferteeti know who I mean.

Also I'm sorry about the Arabic part in my reply,but it's a part of bible and I just copied and pasted it.It's the part talking about the man who was describing nacked woman(You can get back to it and see it if want to share us this point).
---------------
Xavier,

Books are calling me:),so I'll reply just one point,

I mean by sexy pictures,that photo of a female wearing so little clothes(or not at all)that when a man see it have the feeling of(.....) taking in consideration that the photo has been shooted after her agreement.As for sexy stories I mean stories which describe man and woman in a bed which generate same feeling up:).

I want you to know that Muslims also can take pictures and make drawings and sculptures with some limits which may need more explanation but generally it respect privacy and not changing human to a source of lust.

مايو 25, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Mohammed:
Thanks for the clarification. OK Well Goya painted 2 famous painting called lady in a corset: one in which she's fully clothed and the other where she's naked (however, art critics point out that what Goy did was to 'remove' the clothes but forgot to let the breast relax when not wearing the corset!) To get back to your question: well there's such a thing as self control and not all naked painting and photographic nudes are automatically erotic in nature.
additionally if certain photographs and painting cause an occasion to sin, then avoid them. I recognie that here in North America it's really hard because advertisers push the sensual/erotic aspects

You'll forgive me if I'm a tad skpetical that Moslems can photograph etc. Just vert recently Adullah- king of Arabian penisnual criticised the appearence of women- even those in a burka in newspapers
Second, there's very little pictoral art in Islam especially in in Arab Moslem art.
Finally, the Budda statutes that were blown up and that strange fatwa from the Moslem brotherhood against the Egyptian pyraids and statutes lead me to conclude that Islam is very uncomfortable to the point of hating with 2 and 3 dimensional art of people and animals

مايو 25, 2006  
Blogger DavidNic said...

Mohamed,

First, I wish you well on your exams.

Second, I talked about original sin the other day with a friend and used this story. It is a true story, and I thought it made sense:

My supervisor has just adopted a teenage girl They fostered her for two years. They asked for a child with problems and not an infant. They wanted to help a kid who no one else wanted, even though they have two young boys...they wanted to help someone.

One of the many problems this girl had was an attachment disorder from fetal alcohol syndrome. Attachment disorders prevent you from trusting others. Really they prevent you from loving someone fully.

My supervisor and her husband fostered this girl for two years and through alot of bad stuff. A hallmark of attachment disorder is that you let people get a step closer and then act up to drive them away.

The closer they get, the worse you act. And sometimes you can't really stop yourself from doing these things. And it can get bad with a vary big "B".

She never believed that they would adopt her. She would say things like, "No one ever wanted me, why would you?"

"I'm bad, no one wants me because I'm bad."

Once she tried to jump through the window to get away. The husband held her and she screamed, "I don't need you." He said, "Maybe not, but we need you." There were times when they almost quit.

Almost could not handle everything that was happening. We would talk about it at work. My supervisor would say, "but we love her, and where would she go."

She was adopted two months ago. She still has problems. Still slips. But on Sunday she was the first person in the house to get up and wish my supervisor a happy mothers day. It was the first time she had ever said she was now her mother.

Long way to go. But now she is able to have the chance of success to fully love them and her free choice to do so can overcome her disorder.

This is original sin. This girl did nothing to be born unable to attach, trust and love. But these people, who did not have to do so, suffered with her to teach her love and that they would not abandon her no matter what.

We did nothing to contract the state that made us unable to fully work with the love of God. But the sacrifice of Christ makes us, in a way the adopted children of God. We are now able, if we choose to do so, to work with the grace God offers...to know Him as our Father who loves us. Original sin would be unfair, if it was not for Christ.

But there is no, "if not for Christ" for us in our belief. Because without doubt (for us) there is Christ. And He has redeemed us. He had given us the ability to "attach" to God. work with His grace and return His love as His children.

This girl wanted to care for them, but the conditions that she was born with kept stopping her. It was only by the love of this family that she was able to really make it.

مايو 26, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

Mohamed
Thanks mate. As always, please give me a couple of days to get back with my answer. In the meantime, Xavier and David are doing a fine job as always :)

Salam to all

مايو 26, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi all,

Hope that you're all fine.

I didn't finish my exams yet but I'm going to finish on Monday,I just found a spare time so I wanted to reply some points.


Xavier,

You don't have to describe underwear so well like that.

Really?!!!!!Not all naked pictures are sexy?!!!!!
Oh,I'm mixed here,you should mean here a naked baby rat with no hair on it,Am I right?!!!!

And what worth self-control after seeing a sexy picture,it's so useless.And you know well –as being male- what cause seeing a sexy pic.
And here you can find out one side of greatness in Islamic religion.It don't forbid just the thing,but also forbid the way to it.And watching sexy pics and reading sexy stories leads to harlotry;which all religions forbid,so Islam forbid seeing sexy pictures and reading sexy stories.

I didn't know that Muslim Brotherhood,or those who blow up this statue are Mofteen(Fatawa sayers)..
You should know that just Mofteen who tell about Haram and Halal like Al-Azhar and Magma3 Al-Bohoth Al-Islamiya,so not M.B or who collapse statues who tell me what to do and what not to do.
I know that there are who say that making statues and drawings is Haram at all,and who say that it's not completely Haram,and who say that it's Hala.And here you can see the greatness of Islamic Shari3a,more than one point of view and every Muslim follow the point of view which fits him.
On the other hand;Allah told us in Qur'an : "Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties..."2:185 and saying that it's Haram will cause a lot of difficulty like forbidding taking pics for IDs,and a lot of talents will be buried.

And there is a point here;when Muslims differs in points of view,every side respect others and not claim that they are infidels.On the other hand;when Muslims differs they don't differ in basic beliefs like nature of God,but in just branches.

It's so silly to say that there is no Islamic Art;didn't you visit Louvre Musem before,it have a departement for Islamic art..See here or here..Or you didn't go to Spain and Portugal before and see great buildings there.
And if this was your measure;so Christianity don't encourage Sports!!


David,

Great story,miserable start,happy ending.

I understand the fact that you believe that you inherited a thing which you didn't do which is being away from God's grace,because of Adam's sin..But I don't see any problem in this…
Adam sinned and was punished to be forgived and the punishment was being removed from God's grace,so what is the problem to still un-forgived and also why his sons bore its effects(I mean that to inherit being away from God's grace is so natural like Neferteeti's example (King & prince)sons of prince were born away from the kingdom,but should they inherit hatred from the king?!!..If he was just,Not at all.
So what do you think about God,most powerfull,most merciful and most just)
Also Being a son of sinner isn't a sin.So the question is how a non-sin need a slavation?!!!!!!
Hope to clarify this point.

Also as you said But the sacrifice of Christ makes us. so my point here is that people before coming of Jesus couldn't "attach" with God.I see that it's not fair or just at all.By another word,Why you are better than those before coming of Jesus (in your belief)?!!

Hope to send my greetings to the little girl:).


Neferteeti,

Waiting for your reply...


Till Monday,

يونيو 18, 2006  
Blogger xavier said...

Mohammed:
You understand the challenge don't you? To repeat: when you know that photos or pictures of naked women (or men in the case) provoke an occasion to sin, then avoid them. It's not easy but God is there to help us overcome the temptation. And yes not all photos of naked people are sexy. I've actually been revolted by some photos/paintings of nudes. Naked babies don't provoke any erotic sensations.
As for Islamic art: I'm unimpressed. Western artists have never been inspired by Arabic calligraphy and as for architechture, I haven't noted any
In deed some of the Islamic architecture in the Iberian peninsula, Sicily are nothing more than churches and a few classical buildings that the Moslems embellished. However, no one refers to any Moselm architect for inspiration or ideas.
Shar'ia is an abomination. Whatever beard with a gun can declar anything haram like the Somalil Islamic court alliance which decided that watching the world cup will corrupt the children; so they closed the cinemas.
xavier

يونيو 18, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Xavier,

I'm here just to try to understand Christian faith.And I think that you're here for another purpose;you just feel hatred towards Islamic religion and want to direct swears.And I don't like this way.

As for western opinion in Islamic art;in fact whether me or Islamic art cares about it.

Any way,we look like that we won't meet in one point,so I don't want to continue this discussion with you,for two reasons:

-My religion gives me a basic rule when I talk with people of the book.It's: And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." 29:46
And I love my religion so much and believe that it's the best and it have the greatest effect in my life,and it's the only aim in my life.So,regarding to this rule I won't continue with you,and remember that you who started by the bad.
On the other hand,I think that you'll say same my words about your faith that it affects your life and think that it's the best..etc.So,contemplate in Bible and see what it says about Islam and Muslims,and ask yourself,Is it an invitation for love and peace,or hatred?!!

-As I said,I'm here just to understand Christian faith.So,I have no time to waste replying useless accusations or to exchange swears with others.
And Allah orders me in Qur'an:"Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah..." 6:107
And again contemplate in Bible(sure corrupted one),it don't negative directing swears,but it itself revile Prophet Mohammed.
Also you aren't ready to hear me or any Muslim,just want to direct swears.So this kind of discussion will be so useless.
And if you had a look in Islamic teachings you'll find out that it invites to good,rational and calm discussion.

Thanks Xavier,And all best wishes.

يونيو 20, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi David,

The question I told you on your e-mail is:
Why you said on your profile that you're devout?

The reason why I ask you this question is that we Muslims never say that we're devouts on ourselves,but may be other Muslims say that about us,but it's not good to say that on youself,as when we say that we're Mora'een(guiles)and not Mokhlessen(not loyals)for Allah by good deeds we do,and want other people to know that we're good worshippers.

I don't want you to misunderstand me,but I just asked this question just to understand what is Christian look to this point.

Still waiting for your reply:)

يونيو 23, 2006  
Blogger DavidNic said...

Hi Mohamed,

I say in my profile I'm devout, not for recognition, but because I want people to know that if I state someting on my Blog it comes from someone who actually practices the Catholic faith. In America there are alot of Catholics who say, "I know what the Church says because I'm Catholic." But they do not practice, live or study their faith.
And they often give the wrong impression of what the faith believes.

When I say devout I'm more so trying to say, "I'm a practicing Catholic." or an "educated Catholic" And I suppose that would be a better way of saying it actually. But it is difficult if someone just looks at the profile and does not know me, I wanted them to know that I am someone who is trying his best to give the true position of my faith. The internet gives us challenges of getting points across that we don't have in other ways of communicating.

It is a good question you ask. In a way one of our great saints, St. Francis of Assisi said best how we believe, "Preach the Gospel every day of your life, when necessary use words." So in light of that perhaps a different wording would be best.

I suppose it is a subtle difference in the way the meaning of devout is used at times. But at heart I believe that we share the same core belief on this.

يونيو 24, 2006  
Blogger DavidNic said...

Give me two days at the most to get to the rest of your question from before. My wife needs me to do some things around the house today.

May our conversation remain blessed.

يونيو 24, 2006  
Blogger DavidNic said...

Great story,miserable start,happy ending.

I understand the fact that you believe that you inherited a thing which you didn't do which is being away from God's grace,because of Adam's sin..But I don't see any problem in this…

Adam sinned and was punished to be forgived and the punishment was being removed from God's grace,so what is the problem to still un-forgived and also why his sons bore its effects(I mean that to inherit being away from God's grace is so natural like Neferteeti's example (King & prince)sons of prince were born away from the kingdom,but should they inherit hatred from the king?!!.


Our belief is not that hatred was inherited, but that we have a nature affected by sin.

Original sin hurt creation. All sin does. Through Adam and Eve due to the efforts of Satan, sin entered the world, it is like an infection in God’s Creation.

Christ restores to us our original natures so we may better resist the infection of sin.

Now if we take as given that God did not create sin. But there is still suffering and sin in the world, the question must be asked:

Why?

God forgave Adam. He forgives all who come to Him in love and hand over their own pride. But still, there is sin.

God did not create the world flawed, but yet sin is a flaw. Sin is a flaw because we take a great gift, free will, and turn it away from God.

We have a compulsion to do this. This compulsion comes from the sin of Adam. The desire for self over surrendering to God’s will is the root of sin.

But this desire to turn away from God was not made by God, it was introduced through the corruption that Satan brought to our first parents.

Forgiving Adam is one thing, but when something is broken the person who broke it can be forgiven…but something else needs to fix what was done.

So there must be more to it. God could wipe out all sin. Not just there effects on our souls, as He does (in our belief) with the sacrifice of Christ, but all taint and corruption of sin in this world could be removed.

But to do that would require the destruction of human free will. So God works to empower us with His love and grace to give us the ability to freely choose the love of Him.

He does not remove our desire, but waits for us to surrender totally to Him. To place all of our hope, loves, fears and desires in His hands and trust that He will lead us. There is a beautiful Catholic prayer:


Take, O Lord, and receive my entire liberty, my memory, my understanding and my whole will. All that I am and all that I possess You have given me: I surrender it all to You to be disposed of according to Your will. Give me only Your love and Your grace; with these I will be rich enough, and will desire nothing more. Amen.


So what do you think about God,most powerfull,most merciful and most just)
Also Being a son of sinner isn't a sin.So the question is how a non-sin need a slavation?!!!!!!
Hope to clarify this point.


The salvation is not so much from the sin of Adam, that is as you correctly say, not our sin. But it is salvation from the sin that corrupts creation. Salvation from the eternal death that sin brings by it’s very existence.

Think of it not simply as forgiveness but a restoration. It is Gods justice and mercy that makes Him decide not to destroy the free will of all to combat the infection caused by the actions of our first parents.

Also as you said But the sacrifice of Christ makes us. so my point here is that people before coming of Jesus couldn't "attach" with God.I see that it's not fair or just at all.By another word, Why you are better than those before coming of Jesus (in your belief)?!!

A good question. We believe that Christ’s sacrifice is not a moment isolated in time. Although we believe it is true that grace is not work the same way before Christs ,sacrifice, God took special measure to bring these people into His mercy. God placed seeds of His glorious truth in world religions to lead people to Him. This was a road far harder (we believe) than it is now after Christ. If anything we are not better than those before, but even more reliant on God’s mercy since He has given us an easier path.

This is much the same, I would assume, that Muslims may believe in respects to the truth.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you would say that there may be truth in some degree in other beliefs (especially those who look to God as creator and Lord). But that the fullness of Truth was not revealed until later.

We believe the same, except that we believe that the fullness of truth was revealed in God incarnated in Christ. But I think we both would agree that people who came before (what ever each of us differently believes as far as when the truth came in full) the revelation of full truth, are not out of God’s love.

Only that He took special measure to work in their hearts in His infinite mercy and love for everyone. They just had a harder time understanding.

We believe that difficulty in understanding was due to the state of nature previous to Christ.


Hope to send my greetings to the little girl:).

I will.

Despite our difference in belief, may we forever agree that the One God who is loving, merciful and just is reaching out to us in love. And may He bless our conversations, so we may know each other better.

يونيو 26, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

Hi David,

Thanks for your reply.

In fact I'm so busy these days till a week forward,so I'll get back after this week.

I hope that Nefeerteeti get back to our conversation very soon to reply my points.

Till we continue,

يونيو 28, 2006  
Blogger Mohamed said...

David,

Sorry for being late.I was just burning from inside from the Palestinian state and the Israeli terrorist against innocents and the silence of the world(specially America).Have a look on my blog.

Surprise….I started to understand Christian belief. ;)

Ok,if you believe that sin affects you.So just you who must be affected and there is no reason that your sons be affected by your sin,Justice requires that.
And this bring a question:Is Adam's sin like your daily sins?
If Yes,so how you remove the effects of your sin away from your sons?
If No,so Why it's different from them?Yes,it was the first sin,but it's not more a disobedience of God's order.


If you said that you just have been affected by Satan's efforts with Adam and efforts effects-in your creation-,So here you're my point..

Now if we take as given that God did not create sin…..
…it is like an infection in God’s Creation.
But this desire to turn away from God was not made by God, it was introduced through the corruption that Satan brought to our first parents.

I can understand from that that God wanted to create man pure and don't do any wrong and didn't want to create sin,but Satan had the enough power to interrupt this Divine desire and change the creation of God,This meaning what you can extract from these words.I think that God must be the Most Powerful,as a result when He want to cerate man by a nature,there is not any power which can change this desire.And regarding this belief,I can imagine if God asked a man before Jesus coming;Why you did this sin?So he will reply:It's not my sin,my creation have a fault!!

In Islam we believe that Allah is the Most Powerful and that there is no thing like Him and "..When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is."
So if you asked:Why man have this desire to turn away from God?!!
In Islam we believe that man is the only responsible and the only one who can be asked about his deeds and its effects and just him who be affected by his deeds,and that we had been given the free will and also Allah put in us lust.
Think about it, the element of retribution is so useless without the mixing between free will and lust,because if you don't have lust so you mustn't take retribution because Islam tells you to organize and resist-not kill-this lust and you'll paid by entering paradise,and if you didn't resist it so you'll be punished,if you replied the call of lust (by your free will)you'll be punished(in case you didn't repent),and if you replied the call of charity and good(by your free will)so you'll take the good retribution.
All that because the aim of life is the test,you have lust but organize it. So when man do wrong,it comes from him and his free will not from his fathers' sin which affected his creation,nor satan(Devil just tells you to do the sin and you have the will to obey him or not to).
Just to brief;Man have the free will,mind and lust is put into him,and he choose his way and bear its effects,he isn't affected in his choice by deeds of his fathers,or any other thing except these previous things.


Correct me if I am wrong, but you would say that there may be truth in some degree in other beliefs (especially those who look to God as creator and Lord). But that the fullness of Truth was not revealed until later.

We Muslims believe that Islam is your birth right(not just by mouth but by evidences)and we believe also that Adam was a messenger to his sons,And the surprise,we believe that all Prophets and messengers mentioned in Qur'an(25 messenger)and not named in Qur'an,came by the message of Islam,
Why?Because Islam is not related to any nationality,persons or people but it denotes submission and obedience to Allah.
So,we don't deny Judaism and Christianity,but we believe that they're in their origin are right,but because the task of guarding Holy books of both of them have been put on shoulders of their followers so they have been corrupted,but as for Qur'an Allah Himself guarded it from being corrupted : " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). "15:9
And look at Bible,and will find a lot of conflictions between all Bibles.
So to brief, Islam is not just the religion which Prophet Muhammad has been revealed by,but it's the essence,the messages and guidance which Allah revealed to all His previous messengers.So who believe in the messenger sent to him in his time is a Muslims.Who followed Prophet Moses before Prophet Jesus's coming were Muslims and will enter paradise,who followed Prophet Jesus before Prophet Muhammad's coming are Muslims and will enter paradise,and now who follows Prophet Muhammad the last messenger from God is Muslims and will enter paradise.And same case with all prophets and messengers like Abraham,Isma'il,Isaac,..etc.
And we believe that there is One God not Trinity,and the belief in the One God is the rational belief which can be reached by free and neutral thinking,
and I've been always asking myself;How Christianity by the belief in Trinity is respecting mind?!!This belief can't be reached by mind at all,
Assume that you're atheist,and started to think about this Universe and reached that it must have a God who created it and you and who you'll get back to Him,Think then about all possibilities in God's nature(Is He One,or more than one God…etc),and then see if the trinity was from them?!!
And if you contemplated you'll find out that before coming of Christ no body talked about Trinity but all prophets and messengers talked about the One God who have no son or wife.So whether before or after Jesus the same belief existed in the One God.There was no special measure but absolute justice and mercy.And if you thought about it;God's nature is absolute and don't change by time,so if you thought about Trinity again you'll find that it existed after Jesus(in Christian belief)but before him there wasn't any Trinity.

I'd like to direct your attention to an important point,when I say that Christian belief have faults I don't aim at irritating you but I just invite you to let your mind work,whether you find me right or wrong but just don't delete your mind.

Sure difference won't cause hatred,I think that real religious people are so civilized not to hate who conflict them but wish them being led to the right way.And if we were different in some points,we meet also in some other points.

Yours,
Mohamed

يوليو 11, 2006  
Blogger DavidNic said...

Hi Mohamed,

I have not read your whole response yet but wanted to let you know I will try and get to responding before my wife and I go on vacation.

I also wanted to comment on:


I'd like to direct your attention to an important point,when I say that Christian belief have faults I don't aim at irritating you but I just invite you to let your mind work,whether you find me right or wrong but just don't delete your mind.

Sure difference won't cause hatred,I think that real religious people are so civilized not to hate who conflict them but wish them being led to the right way.And if we were different in some points,we meet also in some other points.


We know we do not agree on everything. I take no offense. May God bless our conversation and keep our minds open to each other.

يوليو 11, 2006  
Blogger DavidNic said...

Sorry for being late. I was just burning from inside from the Palestinian state and the Israeli terrorist against innocents and the silence of the world (specially America).Have a look on my blog.

No apology needed.

Surprise….I started to understand Christian belief. ;)

Ok ,if you believe that sin affects you. So just you who must be affected and there is no reason that your sons be affected by your sin, Justice requires that.


True. But we believe that sin harms creation itself. My sin harms my relationship with God and by extension my relationship with others. It is our relationship to our first parents and their relationship to creation that makes the difference. It all comes down to grace, I’ll get to that in a little bit.


And this bring a question: Is Adam's sin like your daily sins?
If Yes, so how you remove the effects of your sin away from your sons? If No, so Why it's different from them? Yes, it was the first sin, but it's not more a disobedience of God's order.


Adams sin differs from our sin because it was the first and the effect it had on creation. As I said above it is about Grace.

Grace is the strength that God places in us to work with Him. The strength to submit to His will and do His will.

God created the world perfect and grace was everywhere. God was among them in the garden. Even with all of this grace they still sinned.

Because they were our first parents and this sin damaged the world it made it easier for satan to tempt us because it harmed creation (which at first was filled with grace).

We believe that Christ corrects this state and makes it easier for us to work with God’s grace. This is why original sin is not so much a sin but an act that damaged everything.


Just to brief; Man have the free will, mind and lust is put into him, and he choose his way and bear its effects, he isn't affected in his choice by deeds of his fathers, or any other thing except these previous things.


I think there are things we agree on here. Everything comes down to self against God. We are called to go to God and away from selfish desires.

Sin can be defined as actions against God and toward an incorrect thought of self. God made us as individuals, He does not want to absorb our identity but to lead us to the best we can be.

And the best we can be would be the result of following God’s will for us since He is perfect and will guide us to our best if we submit to His will.

But the desire to be ourselves is not a sin since it is part of how God made us, it is the improper use of that emotion the act of self over God that is a sin.

Because that same desire, the desire to be yourself can be turned to be the you that God has made you to be. Because we can not be ourselves without God.

Without Him we are a form with no purpose. So God gives us free will and the power and desire to act. But the action that is sin, was brought about by satan tempting our first parents.

Through grace God gives us the ability to be strong in the face of our desire to be ourselves without Him, our desire to sin.

Really, I think we can both agree that we can not be ourselves without God.

So that desire for self is part of the good that God created. And God saw that His creation was good. So the desire to be ourselves is not a sin, but selfish actions that place this desire over God are sins.

The desire to be ourselves in submission to His will is a great gift that can make us work with our Loving and merciful Lord.

I think you speak of this desire to be the thoughts (or lusts). When I think that such thoughts are satan tempting us to use our individuality against God rather than submit it to Him.

Language may get in our way here and I may not be saying what I want to say the best, I hope we can sort this out.

The desire to be ourselves comes from God. The first sin made it harder for us to cooperate with God. That is the result we are talking about.

Sin is never just personal; it damages creation and our relationships with God and each other. Since Adam was the first of us all, his sin damaged all after Him.

So I think we agree that:

Desire to be ourselves comes from God.

We should use that desire to become our true selves.

Our true selves are known only to God and He will lead us there.

For that to happen we must submit our will to the goodness and will of God.

Where we disagree:

What effects the first sin had (personal or universal)

I think we agree on 4 out of 5.


We Muslims believe that Islam is your birth right(not just by mouth but by evidences)and we believe also that Adam was a messenger to his sons, And the surprise, we believe that all Prophets and messengers mentioned in Qur'an(25 messenger)and not named in Qur'an, came by the message of Islam,
Why? Because Islam is not related to any nationality, persons or people but it denotes submission and obedience to Allah.


We can agree that religion must come from submission to the will of God.

There is a beautiful Catholic prayer:

Take, O Lord, and receive my entire liberty, my memory, my understanding and my whole will.

All that I am and all that I possess You have given me:

I surrender it all to You to be disposed of according to Your will.
Give me only Your love and Your grace; with these I will be rich enough, and will desire nothing more.

The rest of your response about the trinity I will respond to when I have some more time.

May our conversation continue to be blessed and may understanding be between us.

يوليو 11, 2006  
Blogger Bent El Neel said...

hi guys
I posted a response in a new post: A Belated Response

C u there
God Bless

يوليو 14, 2006  

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